Rally Against Global Terror

The Philadelphia Evening Bulletin hasn't existed for at least twenty years now.

Do you mean that the Palestinian terrorists don't blow Israeli buses up?

But the information about buses blown up by the Palestinian terrorists is trustworthy. So what are we doing splitting hairs?

nessie-nym: "How will the people of San Francisco respond to this glorified cross burning? "

Every now and then, you sometimes have to sit back and think, wow, that nessie is really fucked up, isn't he. Bringing the shell of a civilian bus that was destroyed in a terrorist attack that nessie applauds strikes hims as "a glorified cross burning."

Why don't you show up at the rally carrying a sign saying "These civillians all deserved to die, because they were Israelis," nessie? You believe it, why not say it?

@%<

It's not "splitting hairs." It's pointing out yet another bald faced lie, spewed by a pack of serial dissemblers. A lie is a lie is a lie. People who get caught telling them cannot be trusted to be telling the truth about anything. If they are willing to lie about something so petty as the name of a newspaper, they are capable of lying about anything.

What else are they lying about? What about the bus itself? Who *really* blew up that bus? How do we know for sure? We certainly can't be expected to take the Zionists’ word for it. After all, they’ll even lie about something as petty as the name of a newspaper. Anyone who would lie about something as petty as that can never be trusted to tell the truth about anything important.

Exactly, nessie. You've long ago passed your "one too many" lying threshold and are lying now about the fact that the homicide bombings on buses are well documented facts. You're trying very hard to play down the crime and belittle the memory of the murdered. That reveals you as most monstrous. If the victims and victimizers were switched, you'd be shrieking endlessly about the "Zionist" crimes.

Yes, I'm referring to you personally as there's no other reasonable way to retort to a "person" like you who's outed himself the way you have here.

The right often asks leftists why we dont protests China, Russia or other countries that engage in just as bad behavior as the US. The answer is pretty obvious. Ignore for a second the focus on this rally on Israel and assume that instead it was a rally in the 80s against the USSR with a piece of the commercial US aircraft shot down by killing dozens or a rally against Serbian actions in Bosnia with a piece of a bus shot up with Serbian snipers. There is a big difference between rallyting for something one can change and rallying against those who are already in conflict with you. A rally in the US against Bin Laden or Hamas isnt going to discourage them form engaging in acts of violence but a rally against the actions of the US government or a government receiving a lot of US aid will.

At one level my objection to this rally is the same as my objection to "Free Tibet" rallies (although I guess there is a chance China cares enough about PR and doesnt see the US as a sworn enemy so those could make a slight difference). But there is of course something even more troubling than that in that this is in a sense a rally against the other side in a war the US is fighting. Since the audience of rallys in the US are obviously those in the US government and the US media what is the aim of such a protest? Is it to encourage more fighting by the US government? No matter what one thinks of any war, there is something unseemly about a rally against an enemy that comes across as a rally for revenge and violence.

Of course in this case there is the attempt to present it more of as a vigil for deaths due to attacks by Hamas and Al Qaeda, but the presence of a bus where people died adds such a morbid quality (sortof like fetuses at pro-life rallies) that one really has to question the emotional motives of those organizing this.

I dont see any use in a counter protest since the organizers of this obviously want publicity and having people counter-demonstrating against a blown up bus plays into the hands of the organizers if it really is to whip up hatred against Muslims and anti-war activists. When the right-wing tries to do this type of stuff in Berkeley its almost always an effort to create a reation they can focus on so ignoring the best way to go. Showing up with signs and turning it into a nonconfrontational mourning for both sides in the current wars would be another way to go since if the stated motive of the rally is what they say there shouldnt be much objective (and it doesnt play into the usual attempt to portray the left as hateful that is often the motive behind these things)

They keep trying to personalize this. It's a trick. Don't fall for it. This isn't about any one individual on either side. It's about the Nazis of our age committing hideous racist agression, and the billions of people who oppose them.

Absolutely.

The modern-day Nazis are the al-Qaida, Chechen, Palestinian and other terrorists. It's not the nation that has air lifted emergency aid to every disaster stricken spot on the glob over the last two decades at least and has made many technological breakthroughs that have helped save and prolong human life, in addition to providing asylum to refugees no other country would let in, like the Vietnamese Boat People in 1979.

founded the State of Israel through terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Like their mentors the Nazis, they are militarized, expansionist, ethnic nationalists. The only difference between them and the Nazis is the name of their ethnic group. And yeah, sometimes the nazis did good things for the world, too. it didn't make then not also be racist aggressors who the world needed to destroy.

>>>"The modern-day Nazis are the Zionists, who founded the State of Israel through terrorism and ethnic cleansing."<<<

First of all, the Zionists were responding to an attempt to perpetrate genocide on them.
Second, that happened 56 years ago, not at present. Presently some of the Muslim terrorists I noted are following in their ancestors' footsteps to try and found their Palestine through terror and ethnic cleansing. Their mentors, just like their ancestors', are the Nazis.

The Nazis did *some* good things for humanity and when they did, it usually wasn't their intent to help mankind. The Zionists have done numerously more and invariably have done so with altruistic and benevolent intentions.

Alright, now go back to changing the subject by reverting to your spammed "you" complaints.

That doesn't excuse a single Zionist crime, least of all the founding of the State of Israel through terrorism, murder and ethnic cleansing. If “they do it, too” were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing those six million Jews because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians.

And now they are coming to the Bay Area with their sick little dog and pony show to try to stir up American hate for their victims. For shame.

Anti-Zionists are super hypocrites for they readily excuse the creation of a Palestinian state through terror, murder and ethnic cleansing and genocide.

>>>"And now they are coming to the Bay Area with their sick little dog and pony show to try to stir up American hate for their victims. For shame. "<<<

It's a cause for exhilaration. The victims' reps are coming to inform Berkley public opinion of an angel it usually isn't enlightened about. Nothing can be more moral.

See:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html

A lie is a lie.

So could you tell us if it is a lie that the Palestinians blow buses up to kill Israelis?

"Who *really* blew up that bus? How do we know for sure? We certainly can't be expected to take the Zionists’ word for it. After all, they’ll even lie about something as petty as the name of a newspaper."

Do the Palestinians have an organization called Hamas or not?

Is Hamas a terrorist organization or not?

Indeed it is, and once again the Zionists have been caught red handed telling one.

They will stop at nothing to distract you from the the irrefutable fact, the Israeli government is a terrorist organization. That there are other terrorist organizations does not change that one iota.

bp: "So could you tell us if it is a lie that the Palestinians blow buses up to kill Israelis?"

Gee, nessie, why couldn't you answer this question?

@%<

Nope. We already have a one-man generated real rabid anti-Zionist hate fest slandering the moral event scheduled to occur. That's the real issue.

Billions of people oppose Zionism. These people would have you believe it was only one person. Well, no wonder.

Yet not one of these alleged "billions" has called your plan to block the Bus 19 rally anything but harebrained and counterproductive. That's why it's a one-man operation.

@%<

Billions of idiotic people don't make up a wise person.

There is no such thing as my plan to block the Bus 19 rally. It doesn't exist. He's simply employing bunk logic again. This time he's begging the question. What will he try next? Time will tell. Stay tuned. But don't expect honesty. It's the one tactic he can never use. Truth is not his friend.

Does somebody else have a plan? Well now, that's a very interesting question, isn't it. To ask interesting questions is what authentic journalism is all about. I'm doing my job. Why aren't more of you? Come on people, question. Don't just accept what you're told. Find out the truth for yourselves.

If you have no such plan, don't you have at least an initiative of same? Don't set a new record insulting our intelligence.

I'm strongly opposed to Israel's occupation and am troubled by the real motive of Sharon's Gaza pullout. I also think the founding of Israel involved some aspects of ethnic cleansing and even think that the early Zionist movement was pretty racist (even against nonEuropean Jews).
But, I dont understand (or perhaps dont want to understand) why those who oppose Israel's actions use the word "Zionist" to describe supporters of Israel. "Zionist" appears to be a word being used to mean Israeli ultra-nationioanlist or perhaps even Jewish ultra-nationalist? Why not just say what you mean instead of using a word that is so tied to conspiracy theories and a historical movement that no longer really exists. Using Zionist rather than ultra-nationalist or other words that are less specific to one religion makes it easier for right-wing types to be involved with just Israel as an issue while ignoring similar dynamics in other countries (like antiImmigrant feelings in Europe, antiMuslim ethnic cleansing by Serbs in Bosnia and the current ethnic cleansing of nonKurds from many Northern Iraqi cities).

Since the US supports Israel more than any other country (except Iraq right now) it makes sense to focus on Israel more than many other conflicts, but the use of Zionist to make the cause seem less tied to other global justice movements is very troubling since aside from hurting overall movement unity it tarnishes the Palestinian activists community. Until hearing proPalestinian activists (more than actual Palestinian actvists) use the word Zionist the only other time I had heard the word was in terms of neoNazi conspiracy theories. Perhaps you can make an argument that your definition of the word has merit, but that doesnt get around the problem that for many people hearing the word "antiZionist" associated with Palestinian activists brings to mind neoNazi ZOG conspiracy theories, the Protocols etc... It really doesnt matter what a word means if its use hurts a movement due to associations; there are plenty of other words that can be used that do not have the same negative associations and carry the same meaning. If "Zionism is racism" were replaced with a longer statement that the idea behind the founding of Israel was racist since "ethnic and religious nationalism is racism", that would be a lot clearer, since its not clear what is being denounced when the word Zionism is used (it could also mean "the idea of a state religion is racist" or "tying immigration policies to religion is racist" or "tying immigration policies to ethnicity is racist" or even "the religious settler movement that wants a greater state of Israel along Biblical boundaries is racist").

I dont find an intense focus on Israel as being a bad thing, since its at the root of a lot of the wor'd's problems right now in that it fuels Middle Eastern anger at the US that then gives the US an excuse the engage in imperial adventures, but I do think the use of "Zionist" and "Zionism" by those who focus on Israel takes away from the suffering of Palestinians by placing it in its own category and issolating it from the struggles of other actvists; the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a refugee conflict worsened by racism (as one sees in Australia and Europe), a war, a problem with the use of terrorism as an excuse for attacking a whole people (like Iraq and Afghanistan), an immigration issue (as one sees in the US) etc.. It would be far eaiser to get more activists to focus on Palestine if it were dealt with as other countries are dealt with without the use of code words that have little meaning to those outside the movement.

>"Zionist" appears to be a word being used to mean Israeli ultra-nationioanlist or perhaps even Jewish ultra-nationalist


"ultra" has nothing to do with it. Zionism is Jewish nationalism as expressed by the creation and expansion of the Israeli nation state through terrorism and ethnic cleansing. It's like Nazism, except with Jews instead of Germans at the center. It is racist by definition. No, Jews do *not* have a greater right to live in Palestine than other people do. They have the same right, no more, no less. To assert that they have more rights is racist. To use terrorism and ethnic cleansing to enforce this belief is criminal. These people need to face a modern Nuremberg Trial, and answer for their war crimes.

If you don;t want to see people focus on israel, then ban their propaganda from Indymedia and from the parks of Berkeley and SF. As long as they are in our face with their racist propaganda, and spending our tax money to finance their war crimes, then we have every right to focus on them. We have more than the right. We have the duty.

>"Zionist" appears to be a word being used to mean Israeli ultra-nationioanlist or perhaps even Jewish ultra-nationalist


"ultra" is proper. Anti-Zionism is anti-Jewish-nationalism as expressed by the objection to the creation and prosperity of the Israeli nation state through hard work and self defense. It's like Nazism, except with Saudi funding instead of German funding at the source. It is racist by definition. No, Palestinians do *not* have a greater right to live in Palestine than other people do. They have the same right, no more, no less. To assert that they have more rights is racist. To use terrorism and ethnic cleansing to enforce this belief is criminal. These people need to face a modern Nuremberg Trial, and answer for their war crimes.

If you don't want to see people like nessie focus on israel, then ban their propaganda from Indymedia and from the parks of Berkeley and SF. As long as they are in our face with their racist propaganda, and spending our tax money to finance their bandwidth wasting, then we have every right to focus on them. We have more than the right. We have the duty.

Why the need for Nazis comprisons? Do you think that Israel is trying to take over the world, is violently anti-Communist and opposed to labor unions, experiments on human subjects from minority groups, kills off the disabled.... ? The founding of Israel involved the displacement of many people (in the hundreds of thousands) and the Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza keeps a people of one ethnicity subject as noncitizens to the whims of an occupying power largely of a different ethnic group (with growing hostility between the groups on both sides) You can compare this with a lot of different things but to jump immediately to a Nazi comparison is enough hyperbole to make it hard for people to take the rest of what you say seriously.

It's not hyperbolic. Nazism and Zionism are two sides of the same racist coin. Both ideologies are aggressive, expansionist, militarized ethnic nationalisms. Both Zionists and Nazis believe that their ethnic group should have more rights than other ethnic groups, including the right to run a nation state, the right to expand it's borders at will, the right to kill people who resist their expansion and to exploit the rest as cheap labor. Both believe in maintaining a highly stratified, apartheid society in which where one is allowed to live and what one is allowed to do is determined in part by ancestry.

The main difference between them is the name of the favored ethnic group and their relative number. If there were sixty million Israelis and they had an industrial infrastructure the scale of Germany’s to draw upon, they would have killed a lot more people by now and stolen a lot more land. That’s what they do. They kill people and steal land. That’s how they gained control of Israel “proper.” That’s how the gained control of the rest of Palestine. That’s their MO, murder, theft and terrorism, acted out with military might, and justified in their own minds by their racist analysis of the role of ethnicity in human relations.

Either you are a nazi or a terrorist.

"It's not hyperbolic. Nazism and Zionism are two sides of the same racist coin"

But wait Mustafa, you're equating Zionism with the Arabist Mufti movement of Trans Jordan, Egypt and Syria...
Point being, today's "palestinians" are yesteday's Nazis...

They are still trying to distract your attention from the issue under discussion by employing their most typical logical fallacy, the ad hominem. An ad himinem is not a rebuttal. It's a way to change the subject. Why do they keep trying to change the subject? What are they trying to hide?

From Guns and Butter last week (December 29). Take a listen if you are interested. I thought the facts as he presented them were pretty damning, but maybe someone here can disprove them.

http://kpfa.org/archives/archives.php?id=13

We have only to remember Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem.

better analogy: "If you don't want kicked in the crotch, don't try to rape me."

If you don't want to be treated like an apologist for racist aggressors, don't apologize for racist aggressors.

It’s not rocket science. It’s really quite simple. Racists are not welcome. Neither are their friends. If you don’t like that, too bad.

I stole my neighbor's land, killed his livestock, dug up his orchards, beat his wife, jailed his kids, and all I got was this lousy terrorist response. Please help defend my right to steal land! U.S. donation$ always welcome (no strings attached).

How Dare the Jews Shoot Back!

If Hizbollah and Palestinian are " racist aggressors" and "terrorist murderers," then so were Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, Pontiac and Geronimo, who likewise fought against colonialist invaders to protect their land and their people.

The problem is your apology for racist aggressors like Hizbollah and Palestinian terrorist murderers. This is also pertinent to the present. We can maneuver the course of events only in the present. We can't change the past.

If "they did it, too" were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for murdering those six million Jews because Stalin murdered six million Ukranians.

Antizionists censor posts.

the analogy to Native Americans protecting their land is fallacious because Geronimo and Sitting Bull didn't insist on the genocide or deportation of all the Americans from New York and Philadelphia, nor did the American invaders have a presence in the American West for centuries beforehand. But of course you don't care about such details. Howeer, since you DO care so much about colonialism, then unless you yourself are a Native American then you had better pack up and leave the Bay Area since YOUR ancestors were not the original inhabitants here!

(1.) That's yet another logical fallacy.

(2.) If “they do it, too” were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing those six million Jews because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians.

(3.) The particular place in the Bay Area where I, personally, happen to live was never inhabited by Native Americans. The ones who lived nearest to here considered it undesirable. At times, I can see their point. It’s cold, windy and arid. There’s not much to eat. All in all, it would have been an uncomfortable place to live. Most important, a really nice, reallycomfortable place to live was well within walking distance. You could see where my place is from there, but there was no real reason to live here. So they didn’t.

another ad hominem tu quoque

(1.) Hear it before is making some more logical fallacies.

(2.) The line "if “they do it, too” were a valid excuse, Hitler would be off the hook for killing those six million Jews because Stalin killed six million Ukrainians" has no relevance to the points made just before.

(3.) When nessie says the particular place in the Bay Area where he, personally, happens to live was never inhabited by Native Americans, he's lying, just as when he says the ones who lived nearest to here considered it undesirable. Just as his following claims are lies: "at times, I can see their point. It’s cold, windy and arid. There’s not much to eat. All in all, it would have been an uncomfortable place to live. Most important, a really nice, really comfortable place to live was well within walking distance. You could see where my place is from there, but there was no real reason to live here. So they didn’t." All in all, no one falls for his desperate attempt at extricating himself from the grip of his hypocrisy.

Not only do they take you for fools, but they don't even show you the common courtesy of dissing you in person. They send a bot. That's how much respect they have for the likes of you. Keep that in mind the next time one of the tries to solicit your respect for his cause.

That an ad hominem tu quoque. Like any ad hominem, it is an irrelevant distraction whose sole purpose is to change the subject. This thread is not a debate about the alleged virtues of Zionism. This thread is about a specific Zionist hate rally. Debate about the alleged virtues of Zionism is not appropriate here. Debate about the alleged virtues of Zionism is not appropriate anywhere on Indymedia. Indymedia is for people for whom the utter repugnance of any ethnic state is a given. To allow debate on the issue is *no different* than to allow debate on the alleged virtues of Nazism or the ideology of the Ku Klux Klan. It’s wrong. It’s immoral. It’s offensive. And it has to end. To allow racists to hijack Indymedia bandwidth to use to broadcast their sick, twisted, evil propaganda is directly antithetical to the basic principles upon which Indymedia was founded. The editors here are not doing their job. If they continue to be remiss in their duty to the network, they should be expelled from Indymedia and this site’s DNS link revoked.

Now back to the topic:

It’s getting late. It’s already the fifth. Has your affinity group finalized it’s plan of action? Howe about your back up plans? How well organized is your logistical support? Do you have your signs, props, costumes, transportation, etc. prepared yet? What about legal support? What will your AG be contributing to independent media coverage? Do you have designated camera people? Do you have tactical maneuvers prepared to protect them and from being beaten and/or arrested and their cameras broken and/or confiscated?

Close up face shots of the Zionist organizers would be appropriate for publication. So would clear shots of the organizers’ vehicles, including both full shots and tight close ups of the license plates. So would telescopic shots of the rooftop snipers that will likely be there to protect the Zionists from people’s justice. Has your AG decided who will take these pictures? Do you have a plan to get them to the internet without being intercepted on the way?

What about you escape plans in general? Does you AG have multiple escape routes planned, in case the Zionists and their goons decide to get nasty? Have you decided what disguises will you use to protect your identity, so as to avoid persecution in the future?

What forms of tactical communication will your AG be using to stay in touch with each other? How secure is it? Have your codes been worked out in advance, F2F, so they are not known to others?

Etc., etc.

There is much to prepare. Time is getting late. It’s already the fifth. Don’t waste time and dissipate your honor by debating with racists, No debate with racists. Down with the ethnic state. Up with a single, secular society from the river to the sea.

Here’s how it’s done:

Hold an egg in one hand, with your fingers and thumb wrapped tightly around it. Only the ends should show. With a sharp object, such as an ice pick, rap smartly on each end, leaving a small, round hole about a quarter of an inch across. Place your lips over one hole, making a tight seal. Suck the inside out of the egg. Swallow or spit; it’s up to you. If you are a vegan, don’t suck, blow. Either way, you end up with a hollow egg.

Seal one end of the egg with tape. Avoid contaminating the shell, and especially the tape, with fingerprints and/or DNA. Vinyl gloves and a face mask should suffice. Fill the hollow shell with whatever. Paint works. Now seal the other end. Do *not* throw it at anything you do not own. That’s illegal. Never do anything illegal, especially if you could get caught. Specifically, don’t throw these things at anybody or anything at this demo. There will be cameras on the roofs. You’d be caught. Carrying paint filled eggs is technically legal, but don’t expect the law to protect you., That is not the law’s job. That’s your job. The law’s job is to protect the property and the friends of the ruling class.

"It’s getting late. It’s already the fifth. Has your affinity group finalized it’s plan of action?"

From what I can see there are a few people who rarely go to protests talking about organizing a counterprotest at an event designed almost exclusively to create a counter demonstration for publicity purposes. Bringing a bus where people will killed to a rally that will be at heart pro war in a city known to be militantly antiwar seems like something intended to create provocation and to paint the antiwar as something it is not (its also pretty morbid and almost disrespectful of the people who died in the bus).

I know of a few radicals who are neutral about Hamas but most antiwar protesters and most Communists, Socialists and Anarchists dislike Hamas as they would dislike any fundamentalist movement. The point of this pro-war protest in Berkeley is to attract proPalestine protesters and paint those who support Palestinian resistance as crazy supporters of Hamas. I really doubt there will be much of a counterprotest, but its likely a few people (probably 5-6) will show up and some will have signs that will hurt the Palestinian cause more than help it (Im thinking of Wendy's signs containing the word "Kosher" , the right-wing antiIsrael protester who comes dressed as Uncle Sam, and maybe JA) When the mainstream press interviews the counterprotesters (if they do) they will get the same type of stuff one hears on here when JA or Wendy post and it will discredit the Palestinian cause.

At a past proIsrael protest I saw Women in Black and Mourning Mothers show up in black and carry signs about mourning for the dead on all sides and that seemed very effective since the press could not use that as a way to paint Palestinian supporters as all being supporters of Hamas. Its a good idea to have such a presence at these types of events so the press doesnt only encounter the crazies who misrepresent the Palestinian cause. Its best when this is not portrayed as a counter protest since as with "Support our Troops" rallies half of the problem is the misrepresentation of the protest (pro-troop should not mean pro-war, anti-terrorism should not mean pro-Israel).

Luckilly, the small number of people who bother to comment on this site dont represent any real segment lf even the radical activist community in the Bay Area so the idea that the thread above will inspire an "affinity group" to engage in "direct action" at an event designed by the right-wing almost solely for that purpose isnt really much of a risk. I just hope that the few crazies that do show up are not the sole presence at the event by peopel who are critical of the Israeli government so the mainstream press isnt left interviewing JA or Wendy as a representative of the Palestinain cause (aside from the attempt by some to portray all activism against Israel's actions as antiSemitic, the presense of a handfull of usually white and somewhat right-wing crazies at proPalestine events is the major reason the Palestinian cause has not been able to gain more traction in the US or Europe over the past years)

And for those of you who wonder just what a master technician nessie really is, remember that, yes, he's calling for you to suck an egg through a face mask.

@%<

It is, of course, not necessary to put on the mask until after the egg is empty. Nor did anybody say it was. At that point the surface should be cleaned of prints and DNA, and kept clean until the egg is no longer in possession. This is easy. A quick dip in a dilute muriatic acid bath should do the trick nicely. Be sure to not get any on your skin or in your eyes. Once out of the bath, the shell should be dried quickly to avoid damage. From that point on, sterile technique needs to be employed. It’s easy. Just be meticulous, that’s all.

There is a risk to vegans. Vegans blow, rather than suck, Thus they would deposit DNA on the inside of the shell. Perhaps they should stick to similar devices constructed from light bulbs with a hole drilled in the base.

Light bulbs hold more paint than eggs do. Eggs are smaller, so a greater number can be concealed on one's person. Which is best is a purely a matter of personal taste.

Protest Warriors from the radical right often show up at anti-war demonstrations and the effect is the same as the negative one mentioned above. Because of this, many on the left assume that all supporters of Israel (or any other single right wing cause) are part of the broader proBush, religious right movement. Since this is Berkeley, I wouldnt be surprised if even the more militant proIsrael people organizing this thing are opposed to the war in Iraq, opposed to Bush etc... Any fear that radical crazies may show up and create a situation that hurts the Palestinian cause may be offset by the potential of right-wing crazies from the Protest Warriors and Freepers showing up and creating a conflict among the supporters of Israel with signs equating the demonstration with support for Bush, opposition to the UN, opposition to antiwar groups like ANSWER, support for settlements and a greater Israel, statements that Jordan is Palestine, signs about "A Land Without a People", and support for the war in Iraq. Protest Warriors and Freepers help the Left in about the same way as crazies like Wendy, JA, Joe and Nessie often help the Right (both groups create an easy straw man for their opponents).

The Left in the US was partly destroyed in the late 70s and early 80s by uber radicals (who may have in many cases been COINTELPRO but in some casess definitely were not) who made activism hard to join (since new people were pushed away before they could build their own politics) and made radicalism seem creepy and cult-like. Some of this was because certain radical ideologies of creating alternative societies had really caught on because of a mainly self-interested community of draft resisters, and when the war ended and this community disappeared the ideologies couldnt hold up the sudden lack of support of a population that had only embraced the ideology because of a lack of alternatives.

The public relations distasters that hurt the left in the late 70s were counteracted by the militia movements iin the 90s which allowed the Left to grow as it was now the radical right that was seen as the crazed conspiracy theorists who could be dismissed offhand. In the past year the antiWar movement has crumbled but a lot of that was due to electoralism and there is plenty of popular support to build a huge antiwar movement that can make an actual difference. A lot of this popular potential could be lost if conspiracy theories, and counter productive competitions to be more radical than everyone else take hold again.

The proPalestine movement in the US has already been tarnished by the same forces that hurt the radical movements of the laste 70s and early 80s. The thread above with someone calling for throwing paint filled eggs at a bus blown up by Hamas, captures the main threat to the Palestine Liberation Movement. MECA, Women in Black, the SJP, the ISM, and JVP capture a potential to circumvent the risks by acting in a fasion that is often insulated from the radical community. The problem is that the insular nature of these groups also gets in the way of growth so one cant expect large proPalestine demonstrations unless they are organized by ANSWER or others that are not sellective about those who show up at their protests. Despite accusations, ANSWER has been pretty good at keeping itself distanced by any individual actions of demonstrators that may tarnish their cause by getting enough people in the streets in seperate contingents its obvious that no single group represents the entire protest. Of course ANSWER is also only able to due this by having an seperate organizng group that cant be easilly corrupted by crazies (and the results are pretty anti-democratic). The challenge for the future of the Palestinian Liberation Movement is to build numbers (and a feeling of a democratic movement not run by a single clique) without having the more crazy supporters of the cause (whose motivations are pretty suspect) from scaring people away. Attempts to keep movements sane often just result in division and collapse so its a hard task.

>someone calling for throwing paint filled eggs

Nobody did that. Learn to parse.

"The Philadelphia Evening Bulletin hasn't existed for at least twenty years now."

The Bulletin re-opened on November 22nd, 2004 and I am their middle east correspondent

Publication of the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin resumed about 6 weeks ago, and Mr. Bedein is their Middle Eastern correspondant.

Nice try, though.

1."Since this is Berkeley, I wouldnt be surprised if even the more militant proIsrael people organizing this thing are opposed to the war in Iraq, opposed to Bush etc... "

definitely correct for some of us! at least SOMEBODY has the ability to see this as something other than a "left vs right" issue.

2. "The challenge for the future of the Palestinian Liberation Movement is to build numbers (and a feeling of a democratic movement not run by a single clique) without having the more crazy supporters of the cause (whose motivations are pretty suspect) from scaring people away."

Do I see an admission here that there are hard-core neo-Nazi anti-Semites posting on this topic? Again, nice to see some refreshing honesty.

Let's try another take on that:
"The challenge for the future of the Palestinian national movement is to establish a democratic society not run by members of a single clique, without having the more crazy supporters of the cause (whose motives are the elimination of the Jewish state in its entirety by any means necessary, including terrorism and genocide) from scaring away those in Israel who wish to live in peace next to a Palestinian state."

"Do I see an admission here that there are hard-core neo-Nazi anti-Semites posting on this topic?"

There are not many and when they post its pretty transparent andalmsot all; groups are good at not allowing such people to be part of any left-wing movement. What concerns me isnt as much the open neoNazis but the conspiracy theorists who borrow (often without even knowing it ) from right views or who discredit the entire Left with views that most quickly see to be irrational. The focus on Bohemian Grove, Skull and Bones, Free Masons and the broader idea that there is a secret society running the world is worrying since it borrows on right-wing conspiracies of the past and makes it easier to discredit real conspiracies (like the lies presented to the US public over WMD in Iraq).

"The challenge for the future of the Palestinian national movement is to establish a democratic society not run by members of a single clique"
That's up to Palestinians and while I may want no state (if I'm feeling like an Anarchist) or a workers state (if I'm feeling like a Communist) its not much use for me to demand that of a people just trying to deal with their current plight. Despair creates the conditions that lead to the attacks one ocassionally sees by some Palestinian groups against Israeli civilians and for activists in the US to attack groups (even over the usefulnmess of tactics) that already see the US and Israel as enemies makes little sense.
To take another situation with similarities and make a comparison, think of the effect of a protest in Russia against Chechen rebels. Most people were horrified by Beslan, but when antiChechen rallies in Russia occur they are usually efforts to whip up hatred against all Chechens (and ofetn lead to attacks on ethnic Chechens living in Russia). As a Russian one can protest against the war in Chechnya but one has no real way to productively protest against the tactics of Chechen rebels since the hatred between Russians and Chechens turns any such event into a rally for war. How is that different from a rally in Israel or the US against Hamas. Its not like Hamas is going to listen to a protest by peopel they regard as their enemy and want to change and its not very likely it will even have a positive impact on those sympathetic to Hamas. Its more likely to play into the US propaganda that tars all Arabs or Muslims as terrorists.

The elimination of the Jewish state in its entirety by any means necessary is the only non racist solution. A Jewish state is no different that an Aryan state. They are both racist to the core. All ethnic states are racist. Down with ethnic states. Up with a single, secular, egalitarian society, from the river to the sea.

at least someone here who raises rational questions that are worthy of reasoned discussion!!

the purpose of a rally against Hamas and other terrorist groups is severalfold-- of course you are correct that trying to influence Hamas, al Qaeda, etc is not part of the goal here since those groups don't care what we do (aside from dying in one of their "martyrdoms")

1. To put a visible face on terror attacks so people here can see its effects (those in New York can simply go to a large hole in the ground in lower Manhattan)
2. To raise awareness that global terrorism, AND those who endorse/support/apologize for it (to some on this list, if that means you, than so be it), are risks to any free democratic society--or at least relatively free and relatively democratic, since I have doubts about Ohio as well. Terrorism can also be a risk to societies that are NOT free (eg Saudi Arabia).
3. To deliver the message that "nothing justifies this". (note that even the UN Security Council, of all groups, basically said this in October 8).

What the Palestinians do in response is self defense.

"2. To raise awareness that global terrorism, AND those who endorse/support/apologize for it (to some on this list, if that means you, than so be it), are risks to any free democratic society--or at least relatively free and relatively democratic, since I have doubts about Ohio as well. Terrorism can also be a risk to societies that are NOT free (eg Saudi Arabia)....3. To deliver the message that "nothing justifies this". (note that even the UN Security Council, of all groups, basically said this in October 8)."

The "War on Terorrism" is a lot like the Cold War in the way the crackdown on dissent is happening at home. Nothing justified what Stalin did and many good people acted as "apologists" for Stalin before what happened was openly admitted by Kruschev. Yet despire all that what would you think of a rally against the Soviet Union taking place in the middle of a red scare? What would you think of people calling Communists sympathizers "risks to any free democratic society" when it was mainly Communist "sympathizers" who were also fighting for many of our basic rights in the US and the accusation that Communists were a threat to society was used to discredit people working for many social justice causes. The situation is a little different but if anything the "terrorist threat" is more construcuted as a fear tactic and more used as an excuse for other social agendas by those in power than was the Soviet threat. 9/11 killed a lot of people but it pales in comparison with US attrocities in El Salvador, Nicaragua and Indonesia during the Cold War and it also pales in comprison to the real effects of Soviet agression in E Europe and Afghanistan. Even in Israel where people may feel that they live in fear of Hamas, the number of civlians killed by bus bombs over the past decade is pretty low and the danger of getting killed by a bus bomb in Israel is still lower than the chance of getting killed in a car accident (or getting killed in a shooting in many Bay Area neighborhoods)

The most important thing to understand about the "Palestinian struggle" is that it has nothing to do with the Palestinians. The Middle East conflict is driven by Arab nations that have never accepted the existence of Israel. The Palestinians are mere cannon fodder in this conflict.

In their world view, Jews are a people who are eternally condemned, and who can never rise above the status of "dhimmi," subordinate to Moslems. It therefore enrages them to see an energetic, productive Jewish state in their midst that continually contributes to the well being of humanity, while their own societies are stagnant and unproductive, and constantly falling farther behind the rest of the world.

The linchpin of the Arab attempt to destroy the Jewish state is a campaign of systematic deceit and false accusations, all of it intended to incite the world against Israel and cause other nations to join the Arab attempt to annihilate it. The goal is to create a lynch mob mentality that isn't interested in hearing rational arguments, or anything from the pro-Israel side, but is driven by blind hatred alone.

For example, they've invented an entirely fictitious history of the Middle East which denies the authentic Jewish claim to the land, while fabricating a fictitious "Palestinian" claim. They thus try to cast Israel as a foreign invader that stole the land from the true Arab owners.

Another favorite tactic is to accuse Israel of the very crimes that they themselves are guilty of. To name just one example out of many, they accuse Israel of deliberately killing Arab civilians. In fact, Israel goes to great efforts to avoid killing civilians in the course of fighting the terrorists. It's precisely for this reason that the terrorists often stage their attacks from within densely populated areas, knowing that Israel is less likely to shoot at them for fear of hitting the civilians. But Arab terrorists do specifically target Jewish civilians, such as passengers on a bus, diners in a restaurant, or even elderly Jews sitting down to a Passover seder!

Since the Arab campaign against Israel is based on a foundation of falsehood, it is certain to be defeated in the end. The Jewish nation will survive this attempt to eradicate it, just as it has survived so many other attempts in the past 4000 years. Israel will win its war against Arab terrorism, reestablish its presence in the land of its birth, and in peace, will go on to become a blessing to the entire world.

To accept the existence of Israel is to accept the ethnic cleansing of half of Palestine. It would be grossly immoral.

>>>"To accept the existence of Israel is to accept the ethnic cleansing of half of Palestine."<<<

The two are neither synonymous nor interchangeable. Nor does accepting the formal automatically entail accepting the latter.

By this criterion, accepting other states' existence entails accepting far worse, even genocide. How far can reasonable and realistic people get when this criterion is applied?

Press Release Anti-Semitism: International

ADL Welcomes State Department Report on Anti-Semitism; Calls for Reporting and Monitoring Standards


New York, NY, January 5, 2004 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today applauded a State Department report surveying anti-Semitism around the world. The report was mandated by the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act, sponsored by Sen. George Voinovich, R-OH, and a group of House members led by Reps. Tom Lantos (D-CA) and Christopher Smith (R-NJ).

Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:

We applaud the United States for its leadership in recognizing that anti-Semitism is a serious and growing problem and for addressing it as manifested today. Too often it has been politically unpopular to talk about anti-Semitism. We commend the State Department and our embassies around the world who acknowledge the changing nature and threat of anti-Semitism and its connection with virulent demonization of Israel and Zionism.

America's human rights advocacy and monitoring have been singular in importance and effectiveness. Having set benchmarks in this report, we look forward to the appointment of the new U.S. Special Envoy on anti-Semitism, as well as follow-up in U.S. human rights and religious freedom monitoring efforts.

The publication of this report is yet another demonstration of America's resolve to take practical and meaningful action to highlight both problems and progress. It also underscores the need for countries to monitor and combat anti-Semitism on their own. We hope that this will encourage states to develop uniform monitoring standards and mechanisms to help identify and respond to anti-Semitic incidents.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

That does not alter the facts on the ground on Palestine. It's an apartheid society from the river to the sea, created by ethnic cleansing and enforced by military terror. What other states do are separate issues, and not the topic of this thread. This thread is about a specific event, not in Palestine, but in San Francisco. Focus, please. Don't let the Zionist propaganda mill shatter your concentration.

"That does not alter the facts on the ground on Palestine. It's an apartheid society from the river to the sea, created by ethnic cleansing and enforced by military terror."

That is mostly correct. Palestine is an apartheid society with the demand of Jewish expulsion and Christians reduced to status of Dhimmis, and being forced to flee to Israel and other countries. This is the case throughout the Arab world, except not "from the river to the sea" at least not yet.

Certainly the PA has been using armed military terror to try to influence Isralis to flea so that they can have an ethnically pure country from the river to the sea.

Thankfully the nation of Israel is strong and
-no matter how matter many Jewish children on schoolbusses they murder,
-no matter how many Druze businessmen they wrongfully imprison,
-no matter how many Bedoin Muslim battalions they blow up from underground tunnels,
the pluralistic, democratic, free State of Israel will not succumb to the dictator run, apartheid like, currupt to the core Palestinian Authority forces.

"We’re looking for close ups of Zionist organizers’ faces, both frontal and profile, for our rogues gallery"

Can I have copies for my mother? She will be so proud!

Nessie, we won't be intimidated by your harrasment, your McCarthyite tactics, or even threats on our lives.

Yes, the death threat against Ms. DeWitt "and her whole family" was forwarded to the FBI, thank you very much.

So put us in your "rogues gallery," Will you be posting home addreses and phone numbers as well? Will you put an "X" over the pictures should one of them "die?"

Does anyone still think that the anti-Zionists represent "Peace and Justice?"

> Yes, the death threat against Ms. DeWitt "and her whole family" was forwarded to the FBI,

Isn't it a *crime* to lie to the FBI?

Isn't making a false report a *criminal* act?

This thread is about the rally itself. Le's focus on it. There are any number of ways that this pep rally for ethnic cleansing, and anything else they do in the future, can be discredited. All of them involve getting the truth to the public. Inquiring minds want to know, who are the organizers? What else do they do? Are they involved in any businesses that could be boycotted? How difficult and/or advisable would it be to picket their personal residences? What skeletons, financial and otherwise, do they have in their closets? Do they have police records? Are their taxes in order? Are any of them agents of a foreign power who have failed to legally register as such? Do any of them have drinking problems? How about secret drug abuse problems? Are any of them having extramarital affairs? And so forth.

Of course, we can’t expect the corporate media to investigate these things for us, but that’s OK. We don’t have to wait for the media. We can *be* the media. That’s what IMC is all about. So come on, people, let’s see some real investigative journalism here. get out there and dig up the dirt on these people. Pick one of them. Find out everything. Tell the world.

nessie-nym, still revising his goals downward, now that his armies-of-the-night have failed to materialize: "There are any number of ways that this pep rally for ethnic cleansing, and anything else they do in the future, can be discredited."

So now the rally that must be stopped at all costs can't be stopped, but only "discredited."

And, funnily enough, all of the ways of discrediting it end up being based on the ad hominem fallacy -- the one he constantly attacks everyone else for using.

Not that we're surprised to see nessie display yet _more_ hypocrisy on the topic. What is it about Bus 19 that scares him so?

@%<

Has anyone else out there seen this particular piece of propaganda and promotion of hatred? It was pointed out by Ran HaCohen in one of his articles. I couldn't believe my eyes.

see:
http://masada2000.org/shit-list.html

Has anyone else out there seen this particular piece of wisdom and promotion of reality? It was pointed out by Ran HaCohen in one of his articles. I couldn't believe my eyes.

see:
http://masada2000.org/shit-list.html

In this very website I have seen threads strongly critizising President Bush and other American politicians; however, nobody has protested against that propaganda and promotion of hatred.

It could be. But it wont, at least not in Berkeley, because the people of Berkeley apparently care more about the lives of trees and lab rats than they do about the lives of human beings. Or maybe they don’t want to risk arrest because they might miss a party. This was not always the case, but things change.

What will happen when this hate fest comes to San Francisco remains to be seen. My best guess is that it will, of necessity, be guarded by overwhelming force, and thus be allowed to take place.

But who knows? Maybe “something awful” will happen. We can always hope.

Personally, I’m not going anywhere near either of this thing. It’s simply too inviting a target for terrorists. Those pesky terrorists, they’re everywhere these days. Ashcroft says so, so it must be true. Why, there’s probably a couple hiding under you bed right now, just waiting to sink their scaly, yellow fangs into the soft, pink flesh of your ankle. And later, their thirst for evil still not slaked, they may sprinkle Civic Center with anthrax, or nail bombs, or the carnivorous leeches of Lake Lachrymose. Terrorists, who knows what they’ll think of next.

So I’m going to skip this thing. I wouldn’t want to end up as collateral damage should they choose just then to strike. I didn’t get this old by taking foolish chances. I think I’ll go hang out in public somewhere else instead, with several credible witnesses, just in case.

The Shit List has been soundly condemned by most Jewish and Israeli organizations. The list includes many active Zionists who just don't live up to the super right wing views of the site owners.

The pro-Israel side condenms this sort of thing. The anti-Israel side boasts of doing this sort of thing.

It cannot be. And it wont, at least not in Berkeley, because the people of Berkeley apparently care more about the truth in Palestine than they do about the lies of human beings purporting to represent them. Or maybe they don’t want to risk arrest of their intelligence. This was not always the case, but things change thanfully.

What will happen when this moral truth rally comes to San Francisco remains to be seen. My best guess is that it will, of necessity, be guarded by overwhelming force, and thus be allowed to take place.

But who knows? Maybe “something awful” will happen even to its opponents. We can always hope.

Personally, I’m not going anywhere near either of this thing. It’s simply too inviting a target for police. Those pesky police, they’re everywhere these days. Ashcroft says so, so it must be true. Why, there’s probably a couple hiding under my bed right now, just waiting to sink their scaly, yellow fangs into the soft, pink flesh of my ankle. And later, their thirst for evil still not slaked, they may sprinkle Civic Center with anthrax, or nail bombs, or the carnivorous leeches of Lake Lachrymose. Terrorists, who knows what they’ll think of next.

So I’m going use that excuse to skip this thing. I wouldn’t want to end up as collateral damage should they choose just then to strike. I didn’t get this old by taking *those* foolish chances. I think I’ll go hang out in public somewhere else instead, like the soapbox building, with several credible witnesses, just in case.

As always, when the heat reaches a critical point, he just loses his nerve to lead by personal example out in the field.

in the interest of continuing dialogue with someone who recognizes that there ARE more choices in life than "1. mine 2. wrong".....

? wrote "The situation is a little different but if anything the "terrorist threat" is more construcuted as a fear tactic and more used as an excuse for other social agendas by those in power than was the Soviet threat. 9/11 killed a lot of people but it pales in comparison with US attrocities in El Salvador, Nicaragua and Indonesia during the Cold War and it also pales in comprison to the real effects of Soviet agression in E Europe and Afghanistan. Even in Israel where people may feel that they live in fear of Hamas, the number of civlians killed by bus bombs over the past decade is pretty low and the danger of getting killed by a bus bomb in Israel is still lower than the chance of getting killed in a car accident (or getting killed in a shooting in many Bay Area neighborhoods) "

my response:
1. unfortunately, you are correct about 9/11 providing an excuse for those in power to institute policies that, at least, are questionable. However, that does not diminish the existence of the actual threat. The Communists were trying to keep a large country afloat at the same time they were conducting the Cold War. They also had the experience of 20 million dead from WW2 and had no interest in mutually assured destruction. Those two factors helped prevent the launch of an apocalyptic war. Radical Islamic terrorists have no country to support, nor do they care about kiilling their own people in the process as long as "infidels" die. cf recent statements from the Iranian Prime Minister that 5 million Iranian dead would be an acceptable tradeoff for the genocide of an equal number of Israelis. It also does not take billions of dollars/rubles (in this decade, anyway) to create a weapon of mass destruction that will be delivered by means other than ICBMs.
2. I don't get the relevance of either US-sponsored atrocities in Central America or Soviet atrocities in Afghanistan to this particular discussion. If it is simply to compare the number of dead, there's lots of ways to look at that one; for example, 1000 Israeli civilians killed by genocidal Arab terrorists in 4 years would be 50,000 US dead if you get the same percentage of population killed. Still "pretty low"?
Since you bring in the Central American analogy, let me propose this one; it's 1983, and a Salvadoran terrorist group (just used as a made up example here, people, since the US had installed a junta there-- not implying that any civilized society would support this type of activity!) hijacks a plane and flies it into Candlestick Park during a 49er game. 40,000 people die in the wreckage, many others maimed for life. Now, since the US was sponsoring the oppressive gov't in power there at the time, would that action be morally defensible to you? (assume as well that numerous relatives of yours were killed, and let's even say that many of them opposed US policy in Salvador; but of course the terrorists didn't stop to poll the crowd first....)

They are not "genocidal Arab terrorists." They are freedom fighters, trying to drive out a brutal colonialist invader, in most of the same ways that the Zionist terrorists once drove out Britain, an equally brutal, colonialist invader. Their tactics are virtually identical. For example, they too arm children with bombs, just like the Zionists did before them:

http://sfbay.indymedia.org/news/2004/09/1696976_comment.php#1713352

They also attack busses, just like the Zionists did before them:

http://sfbay.indymedia.org/news/2004/12/1711461_comment.php#1713340

Is Nessie tries to imply that Jewish extremists in 1948 blew up schoolbusses of Arab children?

There is no comparison between the terror tactics of Irgun and Stern gang in 1948 and the Arab terror networks that target children and as many civilians as they can murder.

Yasser Arafat is called "The Father of Modern Terrorism" for these tactics that no IRA soldier, SLA member, Basque sepratist, or FARC member would consider even their darkest dreams.

They are genocidal and racist genocidal Arab terrorists, not "freedom fighters". They are invading squatters brutally trying to drive out the Jews, in far worse ways that the Zionist freedom fighters once drove out Britain, an equally brutal, colonialist invader. Their tactics are not identical by any means. For example, they arm children with bombs which are to dispose of the child when they go off, but the Zionist freedom fighters did barely did that before them.

Palestinian Authority Security Services Supplied Guidance, Weapons & Funds To Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades In Order To Perpetrate Terrorist Attacks
(Communicated by the Prime Minister's Media Adviser)
May 02, 2002
Nasser Abu Hamid, a senior member and founder of the Al-Aqsa Brigades, who was arrested in the course of Operation Defensive Shield, has told his investigators that after the establishment of the Brigades in the Ramallah area, the Palestinian Authority supplied it with the names of senior operatives in other areas in Judea and Samaria with whom it had initiated contact in order to cooperate in perpetrating attacks and in fighting against the IDF.

Nasser Abu Hamid, 31, a resident of the Amari refugee camp, was a senior and founding member of the Al-Aqsa Brigades and a senior Tanzim terrorist who was responsible for shooting, bomb and suicide attacks in Judea and Samaria. He had previously served time in an Israeli prison after he admitted murdering five collaborators but was released in the framework of the Oslo agreement.

During his questioning, Nasser detailed how he had established paramilitary militias in the Ramallah area, which had perpetrated shooting attacks, and afterwards declared the establishment of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. He received the names of terrorists in various West Bank towns from PA operatives in the Ramallah area, and made contact with them. Among these were Nasser Aweis from Nablus, Raed Karmi from Tulkarm, Abdullah Karim Aweis from Jenin, Ataf Aviat from Bethlehem and additional senior figures who later became among the most prominent terrorists in the field.

Nasser described the considerable military and financial assistance that they received from the outset from Marwan Barghouti, Fatah Secretary-General in the West Bank, via the latter's nephew Ahmed Barghouti.

Nasser noted that senior PA security service officials entreated him and the militants subordinate to him to join their services and that Tawfik Tirawi himself, the head of General Intelligence on the West Bank, proposed that Nasser integrate all Brigade members into General Intelligence, including the payment of their salaries.

Nasser admitted that he ultimately decided - along with the members of his organization - to join Marwan Barghouti, given their prior acquaintance and the former's estimation that under the latter's patronage, it would be possible to step up his activity. Nasser's decision was adopted by his associates who agreed that Barghouti was the best choice for them. They also decided to adopt the name Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

Nasser also admitted his involvement in numerous shooting, bomb and suicide attacks, including attacks in which Israelis were killed. Nasser added that National Security members participated in several attacks and even took an explosive charge from its stores for one of them.

Nasser said that several bombs were regularly kept in a jeep which had been permanently parked at the Force 17 roadblock in Ramallah for use in case of an IDF incursion into Ramallah.

Nasser sees Marwan Barghouti as both a supreme commander and a friend. In his words, the two of them planned their ascent into the Palestinian leadership when Barghouti made it clear that Nasser would advance along with him. Barghouti promised to build a special residential neighborhood for Nasser and his men and their families in the future. Nasser said that he was Barghouti's closest adviser and was aware of the latter's military activities, including the transfer of funds and war materiel to those who perpetrated attacks and assisting in the transport of suicide bombers.

What is your definition of terrorism and can an attack on those in the military be considered terrorism under that definition? The dictionary definition just calls terrorism unlwaful violence for political ends but if that really were the definition (in terms of how the word is used) it would include most wars, police violence against protesters, and probably even the death penalty in the US (since its become a political end in tersm of pandering to the anticrime corwd to get elected by killing as many peopel as possible). What makes Palestinian violence against Israeli troops any different from Israeli violence against Palestinian militants (including assasinations usually considered illegal under international law)? Why the use of the word terrorism in the case of Palestinians but not in the case of the IDF or US forces in Iraq (that war is illegal)?

This is about propaganda. Specifically, it is about a particular propaganda campaign being waged in our community by the Zionists. Focus on that. Talk about terrorism in an appropriate thread. That way, the Zionist propaganda mill wont be able to distract us, divert our attention, or disrupt our and analysis.

They keep trying to change the subject because they really, really, really don;t want us to think very hard about what they are doing here. What they are doing is conducting a a series of pep rallies for ethnic cleansing. This bus stunt is nothing but a glorified cross burning. The cross, too, is a symbol of terrorism. It is so well know, even after all these centuries, because it was once used to terrorize the population of Palestine. In particular, it was used by the brutal imperialist oppressor who was occupying Palestine at the time, to publicly execute a Palestinian activist who had had the effrontery to confront the puppet government by denouncing them in public and driving money changers from their temple in what can only be described as a violent political demonstration. Today the government would call it “terrorism.” Jesus was a terrorist by today’s definition.

Jesus was a also Palestinian. Anyone who lives in Palestine is a Palestine. Jews who live in Palestine are no less Palestinians than Arabs, Druze, Armenians, Circassians or whatever. They are *all* Palestinians. No single group of Palestinians has the moral right to lord it over the other Palestinians by employing state sponsored terrorism to intimidate them, and murder the ones who are not intimidated. It’s wrong. Were Jesus thirty three today, he would not take his whip to the Temple, but to the Knesset, and he would not be arrested by the Sanhedrin, but by Shin Bet. He would not be crucified, but shot “while trying to escape.”

I stole my neighbor's land, killed his livestock, dug up his orchards, beat his wife, jailed his kids, and all I got was this lousy terrorist response. Please help defend my right to steal land! U.S. donation$ always welcome (no strings attached).

Minor detail for a minor pain in the tuchas: deanosor needs to check his facts before he calls others liars. A quick search on the internet determines that the The Philadelphia Evening Bulletin is alive and well, after a long absence, according to an article I found at http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/10249885.htm?1c.

this is sort of sad. Every group or family has a percentage of insane people: Police Blotter By RICHARD BRENNEMAN
Bus Fracas Suspect Charged

Berkeley Police identified the man arrested during a Sunday fracas over a bombed Israeli bus on exhibit at Martin Luther King Jr. Park as Reuven Kahane.

An Oakland man, he identified himself to Jewish News Weekly in 2003 as the first cousin of Meir Kahane, founder of the Jewish Defense League in American and the anti-Arab Kach Party in Israel.

The State Department currently lists Kach as a terrorist organization.

The elder Kahane was convicted of arms smuggling in 1971, and JDL members were implicated in a series of bombings targeting Soviet and Arab organizations as well as American Jewish entertainment mogul Sol Hurok, whose talent agency booked Soviet artists.

Numerous other JDL members have been convicted of bombings, assaults, and other charges.

The same year Meir Kahane was convicted, he moved to Israel, where he founded the virulently anti-Arab Kach Party, later banned by the Israeli government.

He was assassinated in New York in 1990 by an Arab terrorist who belonged to the same cell that bombed the World Trade Center three years later.

Berkeley Police initially took both Kahane and his 14-year-old victim into custody, “when it was discovered that the young man was actually a victim,” said Berkeley Police Spokesperson Officer Joe Okies.

Kahane was booked on one count of battery.

“While there was lots of verbal confrontation, that was the only physical altercation,” Okies said.

First Crash, Then Piece

After two vehicles collided in the 2300 block of Curtis Street just minutes into last Friday, their respective motorists became entangled in a bit of verbal acrimony which soon escalated to something considerably more ominous when one of the aggrieved parties produced a piece and brandished at the other.

Fortunately, a modicum of sense then entered the picture before a trigger-finger twitch could result in grievous bodily harm.

When it was over, the unarmed party called nine-one-one.

Officers discovered that the two parties knew each other before the fender-bending, and the case remains under investigation, said Officer Okies.

How Shoplifting Becomes Robbery

After an alert clerk at the Gilman Street Walgreen’s spotted a putative shopper stuffing goods inside his coat and heading to the door without stopping by the cash register, he confronted the fellow, who responded with a shove—in the process, dropping a considerable quantity of pilferage.

By laying hands on the clerk, the shoplifter not only lost much of his swag; he had thereby transformed his lesser, potentially misdemeanor offense into something that carries the promise of lengthier incarceration, namely strong-armed robbery.

The pushy felon remains at large, said Officer Okies.

Stalking Suspect Nabbed

A 53-year-old Berkeley man finds himself facing the possibility of a strenuous stretch in stir.

After he made contact with his former partner in the predawn hours last Saturday, she called police, who arrived within minutes and launched a search of the surrounding area.

Caught within minutes, the suspect was booked on suspicion of stalking and making threats of great bodily injury or worse to his ex-companion.

Blue-eyed, Stranger

A Berkeley woman called police last Saturday to report an odd occurrence of the day before.

She’d been walking by the Salvation Army store in the 1800 block of University Avenue when she caught the attention of a thin, denim-jacketed, khaki-bag-carrying blue-eyed stranger, who then proceeded to show her a part of himself she didn’t want to see.