Explaining the Arab-Israeli conflict through numbers

a wise person once said: "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Pretty much all of those stats are true.

But more importantly, the info you can gather from them is, unfortunately, also true.

where is the ANGEL now?

i'm sorry Prof, but what information might that be? that Prager, in keeping with his politically conservative (almost reactionary, if i remember correctly from reading some of his screeds) style has evaded (and not very skilfully either) the overwhelmingly superior firepower of the israeli military in dealing out reprisals for every perceived terrorist atrocity against its citizens? that Prager, like all other pro-zionists and zionist apologists, has assumed a moral equivalency between arab nations and the state of israel regardless of (or perhaps because of) the overwhelming financial and political support it receives from the USA? that Prager avoids the question of whether or not the UN had the legal right to give away land to the incipient state of israel over the objections of the majority of the inhabitants of that region? please educate me.

>>>"the question of whether or not the UN had the legal right to give away land to the incipient state of israel over the objections of the majority of the inhabitants of that region?"<<<

I'm afraid you've confused the dates. The State of Israel had yet to be created by Nov 29 '47. Since May 14 '48 the UN never "gave away" land to Israel. Perhaps you're referring to the UN's recognition of the 1949 armistice lines?

To "some body"

That's cute. You managed to type five sentences of absolute nothing.

The statistics posted at the top of this thread do a great job putting things in perspective.

If Israel wasn't surrounded by such a hostile world, perhaps things would be different.

It's year 2005. Focus on practical solutions for the problems of year 2005.

>>>Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1

Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands<<<FROM ABOVE ARTICLE>

So if the Israeli's drop bombs from the safety of Apache, helicopter cockpits and these bombs kill 10 to 15 people of which who 5 or 6 are innocent children (this has happened more then once in the past 4 years), it is not terrorism?

The Palestinians have a reason to fight (their land and their freedom)....What is the reason for the Israelis?

If the Palestinians are the evil ones, then why?

Have 3586 Palestinians including 679 Palestinian children die?
While 1042 Israelis including 118 Israeli children die since this latest struggle began?

Who has died since this latest struggle for Palestinian began in Sept.2000....For details:

CLICK HERE> http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

The majority of the 4,000,000 Palestinians in the area in question have been born in the area and have lived in the area all their lives.

It is true that the majority of the Israelis living in the area have been born in the area and have lived there all their lives, most of their ancestors came from Europe, Russia and Germany between 1850 and 1947....

It's just a matter of time before they lose the political (unequivocal U.S. support) and military (superiority) argument too.

Israel will be an even more dangerous place than ever when Iran or some other Middle Eastern nation gets nuclear weapons. Israel will become a "lifeboat" that can be, in effect, destroyed and sunk with one single blow: one single missle/bomb. Israeli Jews with any economic means will start to stream out even *much* moreso than now. The remaining Israeli Jews (those who have relatively unseverable economic ties to Israel) will then have to finally start to create a true democracy (instead of another Middle Eastern [semi-]theocracy) with equality for all, or live with the steadily deepening strife and suffer the precipitious consequences.

One more 9-11 against the U.S. -- also, in part, in the name of avenging the Israeli apartheid oppression of the Palestinians -- will also cause the American public -- and even the U.S. govt (because the economic blow will just be too great!) -- to stop their unequivocal support of Israeli oppression. Americans may, now, continue to support Israel as long as they live in historical and moral ignorance or think that it's relatively cost-free, but Americans are not going to continue to die indefinitely for an immoral colonial state.

Or the U.S.'s allies (their govts and/or people) will increasingly start to diverge from and eventually oppose U.S. policy in even Palestine-Israel, as they have on Iraq. Suadi Arabia or some other U.S.-supported Middle Eastern dictatorship could fall/teeter. These are just some of the major *external* factors that will eventually change the U.S.'s unequivocal support of the Israeli apartheid state.

The Zionist dream was critically (and even fatally) flawed from the start. It has already failed, but the Israeli state is being propped up by the U.S. in the same way the U.S. (and other Western powers) have propped up other brutal regimes. There were other colonial states that lasted for many decades -- just like apartheid South Africa -- before those ideologically racist colonial regimes finally fell too.

Israel is a morally indefensible state -- no matter how many Jewish Holocaust movies and documentaries are shoved down our throats every week in some movie theater or on some tv/cable channel -- as it's morally history, double standards and hypocrisy has increasingly come to light. Israel as a Zionist Jewish state is *already* a failed state.

EVEN HERE AT INDYBAY, SF-IMC, AND SC-IMC, THE ZIONIST PROPAGANDISTS -- LIKE "NON-CRITICAL THINKIFIER" -- HAVE TO POST FROM **ISRAEL**, OR OTHERWISE FAR AWAY -- AS WITH GERHIG, FROM THE CORN COUNTRY HINTERLAND ILLINOIS. ONLY RECENTLY WERE THEY ABLE TO BRING IN A *REAL* TWISTED CALIFORNIA WACKO TO THE INDYBAY BOARDS FROM SANTA CRUZ ("BULLSHIT BECKY" JOHNSON).

Many failed states/regimes were failed states for decades -- or even a century or more -- before they finally (at least politically/ideologically) collapsed from their own critical flaws and/or internal contradictions. Israel actually failed the moment some European racist decided to impose, by force, a European, mass dispossessive, brutal apartheid state in a demographically Arab country -- in the **middle** of the Arab world. WHO SAID THAT JEWS WERE ALL SUPPOSED TO BE SMART!??? (That's why even Westerners are starting to write books about Israel's failure as a state.) Israel only exists until its imperial sponsor -- the U.S. -- will no longer be able to politically or militarily support it without (further) dire consequences.

Even the U.S. will be a failed state if it continues on its present course. The standard of living and economic security -- let alone really basic things like access to health care and proportionally affordable urban housing -- keep going down and down over the decades for a majority of the people. The U.S. won't collapse; it'll just end up like the failed British empire after WWII: but for, in Britain, minimal social welfare, a would-be semi-3rd World country would exist for many of its citizens, where whole swathes of the population are unemployed or underemployed, live in relatively cold (by American standards) matchbook houses, and are poor. A country where influenza swept the land even at the turn of the *21st* century because public health care had been cut. Most people (even in the cities) do not have internet connections at home. And a country where a regular lonnng hot full-flow shower is a luxury in most of the land. Britain has to strut its equally failed royalty about -- *lots* of pomp & circumstance -- to even give average people the illusion that Britain is 'still' a great country.

Even now, *WHO* in their right mind -- except maybe some kind of Jewish/Christian religious nut or someone from some dirt poor country -- wants to go live in Israel!? Israel and the Zionist lobby actually have to *PAY* people (including many American Jews) to even go visit, let alone live there!! I'd go live in France, or Italy, or Germany, or Spain, or Sweden, or Britain for some time. But *who* wants to go live in a state -- Israel -- that has long started losing its moral luster, has an American Zionist lobby that has to economically -- or sometimes physically -- *terrorize* people (especially Americans) into silence about criticizing Israel (that's the very sign of moral failure right there); a state that is completely militarized throughout its society, and is constantly on edge, at war, or in risk of "terrorist" attacks internally or with its neighbors? And when Zionists have to use Nazi tactics to either heavy-handedly silence criticism or to sustain their "light unto the world" state, then they've already lost: it's only a matter of time (even if just a few more decades).

The self-imported Indybay, sf-imc, sc-imc arch-Zionists can yak all they want.

Israel's "thousand year realm" (remember Hitler's dream/nightmare?) as an ideololgical "Zionist Jewish state" won't last to the end of this century -- at best -- if not fall sooner. Mark my words. The writing is on (ahem) Israel's Apartheid Wall.

>>>Number of terrorist attacks by Israelis or Jews since 1967: 1

Number of terrorist attacks by Arabs or Muslims since 1967: thousands<<<FROM ABOVE ARTICLE>

So if the Israelis drop bombs from the safety of Apache helicopter cockpits targetting Terrorists and these bombs kill 10 to 15 people of which who 5 or 6 are innocent children (this has happened more then once in the past 4 years), it is not terrorism...

The Palestinians have no reason to fight (to steal Israeli land and freedom)....What is the reason for the Israelis not to protect themselves?

If the Israelis are the evil ones, then why?

Have 3586 Palestinians including 679 Palestinian children, mostly terrorists, died?
While 1042 mostly innocent Israelis including 118 Israeli children died since this latest Palestinian struggle for murder began?

Who has died since this latest struggle for Palestinian Murder and Destruction began in Sept.2000....For details:

CLICK HERE> http://www.ifamericansknew.org/misleadingstats/deaths.html

The majority of the 3,700,000 Palestinians in the area in question have been born in the area and some have lived in the area all their lives.

It is true that the majority of the Israelis living in the area have been born in the area and have lived there all their lives, most of their ancestors came from different continents between 1850 and 1947....

>>>Palestinian children are indoctrinated with racist hatred
which knows no compromise for borders or peace.<<<

And how are Jewish children indoctrinated? That they must confiscate Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza and demolish Palestinian homes. and destroy Palestinian Fruit and Olive trees. There by giving the Palestinian People a reason to Fight for their land and Freedom....It is called provocation.....Then the Israelis can have a reason to drop bombs on them from the safety of their Apache helicopter cockpits and kill many Palestinians, including innocent children.

Who has died and how since this latest struggle for Palestinian Freedom began in Sept. 2000?

CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

West Bank and Gaza is only 22% of what is Today Israel, West Bank and Gaza.

This much is not to ask for the small Palestinian State called for in the Road Map to Peace.....for 4,000,000 or so Palestinians.

That leaves 78% for the 6,000,000 people in Israel proper.....Do the math who gets the most land per person.

To have Peace you must be Just and Fair......

Have you heard of some Israeli child who has blown himself up to kill Palestinians?

>>>Palestinian children are indoctrinated with racist hatred
which knows no compromise for borders or peace.<<<

And how are Jewish children indoctrinated? They are not indoctrinated that they must confiscate Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza and demolish Palestinian homes and destroy Palestinian Fruit and Olive trees, There by giving the Palestinian People a reason to Fight for their land and Freedom....insisting on the contrary is called provocation.....Then there is the Lie that the Israelis can have a reason to drop bombs on them from the safety of their Apache helicopter cockpits and kill many Palestinians, including innocent children.

Who has died and how since this latest struggle for Palestinian Murder and Destruction began in Sept. 2000?

CLICK HERE > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/misleadingstats/deaths.html

West Bank, Israel and Gaza is only 22% of what is Today Israel, West Bank, Jordan and Gaza.

This much is not to ask for the small Israeli State recognized in the Road Map to Peace.....for 6,000,000 or so Palestinians.

That leaves 78% for the 5,000,000 people in Jordan, West Bank and Gaza.....Do the math who gets the most land per person.

To have Peace you must be Just and Fair......

Israel

Hope

Juan Carlos Girauta

«Twenty Arab dictatorships and Europe’s Moratinos style bureaucracy try to convince us that the Middle East’s whole problem stems from Israel's attitude -curiously the only democracy in the area.»

Ariel Sharon, with most of Likud against him and only labor keeping him afloat, is ready to face colonists´ resistance and is already looking toward the Iranian threat even while the Palestine lands might disconnect any minute. Since Arafat’s death, hope grows although in Israel there are rumors that hundreds of Hezbolá agents are in PLO territory preparing to assassinate Abu Mazen.

Another step in the process, a preliminary one, was that five hundred Palestinian prisoners not charged with blood crimes were freed. Other prisoners will follow. Israelis remember very well what happened a few years ago when previous hope turned to frustration and hundreds of freed terrorists could sadly go back to terrorizing civilians, blowing up packed buses and restaurants. But Israel’s complex and democratic society has not forgotten who it is, or why it has managed to survive five conventional wars and a media/terrorist one, nor the need to defend life and freedom every day. How is that possible? This small country with but six million inhabitants packed inside a 15 kilometer corridor between sea and danger remembers the price of tomorrow better than any other people on earth.

[...]

We are especially interested in success for Israel to remove the oldest excuse of the post-war world. Civilization was already in debt to the Jews, now it is in debt to Israel.

Entire article


http://spainherald.com/304.html

>>>Have you heard of some Israeli child who has blown himself up to kill Palestinians?<<<Sefarad>

Israeli children have no need to blow themselves up.
They have adults who drop bomb on innocent Palestinian Children.
Planes, Apache helicopters, many WMD, etc, etc, ...Why would Israeli children want to blow themselves up...there is not need to?

You keep saying that it is the Israeli children that have died, but as you can see the number of Palestinian children dead far out numbers the Israeli children dead.......

Have 3586 Palestinians including 679 Palestinian children die?
While 1042 Israelis including 118 Israeli children die since this latest struggle began?

Who has died since this latest struggle for Palestinian began in Sept.2000....For details:

CLICK HERE> http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

The majority of the 4,000,000 Palestinians in the area in question have been born in the area and have lived in the area all their lives.

It is true that the majority of the Israelis living in the area have been born in the area and have lived there all their lives, most of their ancestors came from Europe, Russia and Germany between 1850 and 1947....

I didn't know blowing oneself up could be a need. And I think encourage children to blow themselves up is an action of perverts.

What do the Israelis have to do? They have to let those nice creatures to kill them?

Weren't the Palestinians talking peace?

Anytime that someone is fighting for a cause there is a chance that some will die.

The U.S. sent soldier to Iraq....over 1000 soldiers have die.
Since there was a chance and the U.S. knew it, that some of the soldiers would die is it wrong to have armies since some will die. (The only difference with the Palestinian is that they do not have super modern weapons like the U.S. and the Israelis).

Many have died in the past in the U.S. in the name of freedom.
So why do we say it is wrong for Palestinians to die in the name of freedom.
Is their freedom worth so much less then the U.S. or Israeli freedom?

In the Israel-Palestinian case, nobody should be fighting, since the governments have come to an agreement.

Anytime that someone is fighting for a cause there is a chance that they will die.

The U.S. sent soldiers to Iraq....over 1000 soldiers have died.
Since there was a chance and the U.S. knew it, that some of the soldiers would die is it wrong to have armies since some will die? (This is by far not the only difference between any nation with an army and the Palestinian... that the Palestinians do not have super modern weapons like the U.S. and the Israelis is not relevant).

Many have died in the past in the U.S. in the name of Freedom.
So why not say it is wrong for Palestinians to die by committing suicide bombings in the name of Freedom.
Is not their freedom to commit such murder worth so much less then the U.S. or Israeli freedom to defend themselves?