Third Anniversary of the Jenin Massacre

The abhorrent lies about Israel and the Jewish people have to stop. Jenin is one of these lies. The truth is: There was a pitched battle in Jenin. But the "hundreds" of martyrs were a cynical invention. The death toll was 56 Palestinians, the majority of them combatants, and 23 Israeli soldiers.

From Sen. Biden (D, DE, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee):

Events in the Middle East are moving very rapidly—so quickly that truth sometimes can’t keep pace with perceptions.
For the past few weeks we’ve been hearing sensationalist claims of a massacre in the Jenin refugee camp in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank. But in recent days hundreds of reporters have descended on the camp, and not one has verified these claims. In fact, just days ago a senior official in Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement in Jenin was quoted as saying the death toll stands at 56. Most of them were armed fighters.
The death of even one innocent civilian is one too many, and there’s still considerable excavation work to do in the camp. But we should acknowledge that the public relations campaign mounted to convince the world of a massacre in Jenin was a politically motivated lie. There are not 500 dead civilians, as Palestinians initially claimed.
What happened in Jenin was an intense battle fought at close quarters in which 23 Israeli soldiers also lost their lives. The relatively high number of Israeli casualties is itself an indicator of what went on in the camp. Had the Israelis chosen, they could have easily pummeled the camp from afar and starved the terrorists out. Instead, they chose to do things the hard way, house to house—in part to avoid civilian casualties, not to inflict them.
Were there civilian casualties? Almost certainly. But there is a world of difference between deliberately targeting civilians and the unintentional and inevitable casualties that were bound to occur in Jenin, where terrorists deliberately hid themselves among civilians.
That is the picture I believe will emerge as the facts are examined in the cold light of day.
Last week there also was considerable discussion about the UN fact-finding panel assembled by Secretary General Kofi Annan. The UN leadership had the best of intentions. But Israel voiced legitimate concerns about the composition, procedures, and terms of reference of this team. It’s hard to blame Israel for having its doubts about the objectivity of the fact-finding team. It argues, with justification, that the events in Jenin must be seen in their proper context, and Israelis voiced concerns over the lack of adequate representation of counter-terrorism and military experts on the team.
Israel didn’t invade Jenin on a whim; it did so to destroy the terrorist infrastructure, and only after the Palestinian Authority refused to carry out its obligations to do so. According to the Israeli government—and the Palestinian terrorist organizations that proudly took credit—23 suicide bombers came from Jenin. These 23 were responsible for the deaths of 57 Israelis and the injury of 1000 more.
It is fair to ask the United Nations what its officials were saying to the Palestinian Authority about the use of a UN-run camp as a launching pad for terrorism. Palestinians in Jenin don’t deny that bomb factories functioned there. To many Israelis, it appears as if the UN turned a blind eye to Palestinian terrorism, yet seems intent on smearing Israel for its legitimate response to that terror.
Nonetheless, Israel hasn’t rejected the UN team. Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres said in a letter to Secretary of State Colin Powell that the team should "examine the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure and activity in the camp and emanating from it which necessitated Israel’s military actions. In so doing, the Team will bear in mind the relevant elements of international law, including the right of self-defense and the obligation to prevent terrorism."
Peres goes on to say "in accordance with the fact-finding nature of the team, its work should be submitted as facts only, and not observations. This is a vital concern for Israel in order to avoid abuse and misuse of the work of the Team for political purposes." He adds "Israel understands that requests for interviews with public servants, past or present, or documents, will be made through the government of Israel." Peres says Israel will "carefully consider these requests," but reserves the right "to make final determinations regarding availability to the Team. This sovereign discretion is mandated by Israeli law."
If the real UN mission is to seek the truth, these requests appear entirely reasonable. Would any other democratic country behave differently than Israel? Would any Arab country ever be subjected to a similar fact-finding investigation in the first place? Perhaps the false cries of massacre coming from Arab circles are a reflection of what many have come to expect from their own governments.
Did any UN fact-finding team ever investigate the Syrian massacre of up to 20,000 civilians in the city of Hama in 1982? Was the international press corps ever able to conduct their own investigations there as they have in Jenin? Was there ever a UN investigation of the genocidal Anfal campaign launched by Saddam Hussein against the Kurds in the late 1980s?
Fair-minded observers must conclude there is a double standard when it comes to Israel.
Many of today’s critics know that Israel holds itself to a higher standard. Many Israelis have raised questions about the military operation in Jenin, including allegations of disproportionate use of force and the denial of medical and humanitarian access. In fact, a leading Israeli newspaper editorialized recently that the army should conduct an internal investigation about possible gratuitous vandalism and destruction of property.
How many Arab countries have a capacity for such self-examination? How many Arab countries have a Supreme Court that would intervene to prevent the Army from removing bodies in Jenin, as did the Israeli Supreme Court?
I believe we have an obligation to examine the facts before we jump to conclusions. Based on reports now coming from Jenin, it appears that far too many reached conclusions before they had the facts.
In the end, some may choose to cling to myths to perpetuate hatred and conflict. Some prefer to live in the realm of fiction than deal with cold, hard facts. But the rest of us shouldn’t engage in such self-delusion.
If my reading of the facts is correct, in the coming days we will see Jenin as the massacre that never was.
-------------------
see also

"Initial estimates were more than 500 children, women, and men."

In other words, the initial estimates were inflated by a factor of ten. The surprise is that anyone still tries to sell that 500 figure at all.

@%<

But even Al Jazeera ("the Arab CNN") - a satellite-TV news channel based in Qatar, and owned by the Emir of Qatar, a Wahhabi Muslim fundamentalist [3] - agrees with the body count above, so we may consider the matter settled:

[Al Jazeera Quote Starts Here]

"Dozens of Palestinian men armed with light weapons kept the world’s toughest army at bay for 11 days and killed 23 Israeli soldiers, using basic, homemade weapons. 56 Palestinians died in defence of Jenin..."[4]

[Al Jazeera Quote Ends Here]

Though Al Jazeera tries to glorify the Palestinian terrorists, notice what this concedes: it was a fight. And the figures of 23 dead on the Israeli side, as against 50 or 56 on the Palestinian side, confirm this, because such are the numbers of a *combat* ratio, not the ratio of a massacre. All of this supports Israeli claims.

http://www.tenc.net/gilwhite/ranta.htm

``Jenin Camp Is a Scene of Devastation But Yields No Evidence of a Massacre.'' -- Headline, Front Page, Washington Post, April 16 ``There is simply no evidence of a massacre.'' --Peter Bouckaert, senior researcher, Human Rights Watch, Jenin.
[...]

al-Jazeera TV.

All this for a phantom massacre. Yet this same Middle East conflict yields no shortage of real massacres:

--April 27: Adora, Palestinian gunmen enter residential quarters shooting everyone, including a 5-year-old girl shot through the head in her bed;

--April 12: Jerusalem, suicide bombing at a bus stop, 6 murdered;

--April 10: Yagor, suicide bombing on a bus, 8 murdered;

--March 31: Haifa, suicide bombing in a restaurant, 15 murdered;

--March 28: Eilon Moreh, shooting attack, 4 murdered;

--March 27: Netanya, suicide bombing at a Passover seder, 28 murdered.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/jeniVn.htm

------------------------------

I saw on CNN an interview with one of the terrorists involved who was serving his time in Israel. This is his narrative:
He was in a group of some hundred Palestinians, all armed, when they saw a few Israeli soldiers coming. They [the terrorists] thought that was the occasion of their lives to kill Israelis, so they started firing and killed some soldiers. Then the Israelis called for reinforcements.
The man said all of it proudly.

It wasn't a "massacre."

As usual the Palestinians lied and exaggerated, and when it was all said and done, it was like 50 of them that died, most of whom were armed terrorists.

The same year, in THAILAND, when muslims protested some various government stuff, thailand police shoved them in cars and drove them off and 87 muslim protesters, none of whom were armed, all died.

Funny how israel killing X amount of armed terrorists over three days gets called a "massacre," but thailing killing MORE THAN X unarmed muslim protesters in one evening gets forgotten about in ten minutes.

I was listening to Free Radio Santa Cruz in late March and April in 2002 to George Cadman's show reporting on realtime events in Jenin. She (George is a woman) was able to place a long distance call to a contact of hers on the West Bank. She eagerly asked how many had been killed by the IDF. "About 1500 so far" her "on the spot" source reported.

I'll never forget that.

So the initial estimates weren't inflated by a factor of ten after all -- they were inflated by a factor of thirty. And quite a few people on this site swallowed those lies and begged for more.

@%>

Sept 11th 2001:
"By 10:30 a.m. EDT, the 1,300-foot-tall towers, with a daily capacity of at least 50,000 occupants, had folded in on themselves"
http://web.archive.org/web/20010911224934/http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/new.york.terror/index.html
Thats just a hint at over 10x the real number but Fox News openlyoverestimated by a lot more but they block web archiving:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.foxnews.com/

The DC estimates were likewise overestimated by quite a bit:
Sept 12 2001:
"In Washington, where terrorists crashed an airliner into the Pentagon, rescuers said the final death toll there would likely range between 100 and 800."
http://web.archive.org/web/20010912182221/http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/death.estimates/

Frankly, how many more reminders of these anniversaries pinning the blame for a pitched battle provoked by the malevolence of Palestinian terrorists on Israel will we have to endure before the moonbats do some soul searching and resoleve to drop these minor hate orgies?

Not sure what problem you had with it but saying 1000s didnt die and saying 1000s may have been made homeless are not contradictory statements:
http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=698
As with Falluja most of what anyone on any side knows about Jenin is highly controlled. How many poeple died in Falluja? How many were civilians? We will never know and for much the same reason that scolding people about Jenin estimates also makes no sense; the military didnt give the media enough room to accurately report and the media wasnt elt in until things were already cleaned up a bit. Sabra and Chatila and Hama were similar cases of massacres that were covered up. Jenin may not have been a massacre on the scale of those other massacres but many did die and while the initial reports may have been off by a factor of 10 that doesnt excuse the destruction of a large portion of a highly populated city.

I am willing to accept that the number 57 Palestinian's dead is correct... and that 23 Israeli "soldiers" dead.

More then twice as many Palestinian Dead.
And the numbers since this struggle for Palestinian Freedom began in Sept 2000 is more then 3 Palestinian to 1 Israrael..

So what does that tell us. Free the Palestinian People.
A Viable Palestinian State in the Whole of the West Bank and Gaza.

The Road Map to Peace calls for a Viable Palestinian State.

For details on the deaths:
Click here > http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Raed wrote the original post to mourn those who died in Jenin, if you are saying 57 people is just too insignificantly small to mourn that would mean that one could never mourn any single suicide bombing against Israelis since the worst of those horrendous acts also only killed several dozen people.

23 Israeli soldiers died in pitched fighting spread over a few days ignited by armed Palestinians. The vast majority of those 50-56 Palestinian dead were armed terrorists/gunmen.

Suicide bombings are a whole different matter. They're executed in a matter of seconds by terrorists invariably targeting innocent non-combatants. Try to learn and assimilate also the fact they're a war crime as well as a crime against humanity.

Your analysis is not just grossly simplistic, it's also disingenuous and suffers a severe moral handicap.

"57 people dead is still a lot
by larger than largest suicide bombing Wednesday, Apr. 06, 2005 at 7:22 AM

Raed wrote the original post to mourn those who died in Jenin, if you are saying 57 people is just too insignificantly small to mourn that would mean that one could never mourn any single suicide bombing against Israelis since the worst of those horrendous acts also only killed several dozen people."




From my point of view, the dead were too few. Many people were left alive who went on murdering Israelis.

I believe it is much better to kill the terrorists than the terrorists kill other people, even if there are people mourning for the former.

"from my point of view, the dead were too few. Many people were left alive who went on murdering Israelis.
"

Pre-emptive executions of Palestinians?.... sounds like a call for genoicide.
The rather sick part of Sefarad's posts is that she doesnt even live in the region and is Christian so the desire to see Palestinians killed isnt roooted in an irrational desire growing out of fear but instead firmly rooted in hatred.

The taking of any human life is always a horrible thing that one should never celebrate no matter how much one hates the person who was killed. When you see people acting gleeful after an execution it makes you feel sick inside but how are we supposed to deal with peopel who thing the killing of 56 people is "too few". Its hard to understand evil until you see it and Sefarad is definitely down there with neoNazis and child mollestors when it comes to basic morals (taht area part of all religions).

Hey "scary,"

If terrorists spend 50 straight years trying to murder you and your family, and every time you enter a bus or restaurant you have to fear for your life, you might feel differently about when terrorists get killed.

Sefarad doesnt live in Israel so she cant use this as an excuse. Whene there is a war going on both sides build up a huge amount of hatred from having familly members kileld by the other side and its easy to understand how this can lead to peopel desiring all sorts of attrocities. Whats scary about Sefarad is thatshe isnt from such a region and just desires Palestinian blood for political reasons not because she was personally wronged and has an irrational hatred based off that.

Does it matter a tiddly where Sefarad hails from? Not in the least. What does matter is the commentary he/she uttered above suggesting not enough Palestinians were killed in Jenin.

That is the disgusting and familiar mindset rooted in the vile and evil terrorist state of Israel where the only people who matter are themselves, their self absorbed jewish selves, and where death is welcomed so as to heighten their sense of victomology, something they glory in.

Ignore the fact that Palestinians have been kiled by the thousands, eh? For God's sakes don't mention the 30 Palestinian children who have been killed so far in 2005 (or, gasp, the 783 in total since 2000). Oh, but they're "terrorists", are they?

Hide the fact that "business operators" in Israel are currently planning on dumping their garbage in Nablas, a direct breach of international law and international treaties, and a very real threat to Palestinian drinking water. Seems that destroying their livelihood is not enough. Now it's their drinking water must be destroyed. Hasn't Israel stolen enough of the Palestinian water resources yet?

Ah, but Sefarad and friends gleefully accept this latest atrocity, and in the case of Sefarad, well, from her comments above, one expects she's hoping said drinking water will be contaminated so as to rid the world of more Palestinian people. Don't blame me for this suggestion, Sefarad. You're the one yelling for Palestinian blood.

She and her friends on this site ignore the ongoing theft of West Bank land and the expansion of illegal settlements as per not just the Road Map but the Oslo Accords and the 4th Geneva Convention.

In fact, Israeli supporters on this site would be perfectly happy were the Palestinian people to simply lie down and allow the terrorist state to simply kill them without resisting.

They refuse to acknowledge the state terrorism carried out by the Israeli army for years against the Palestinian people, the home demolitions, land theft, livelihood destruction. If there are Palestinian "terrorists", let me assure you that when it comes to terror, Israel has elevated same to unheard of heights, lying all the while.

Jenin was a massacre. War crimes were committed therein. You can twist and twist and twist the truth, but the world knows better. And Israel, who whined "we have nothing to hide" effectively ensured that the UN investigative team never made it to prove or disprove it because, of course, Israel, who "had nothing to hide" did, in fact, have plenty to hide, and hid it well.

In fact, not only was Jenin a massacre, but as Stephen Gowans wrote at the time the truth was massacred as well. Just as it always is in Israel.

Because if Israel government officials aren't lying about their murderious activities against Palestinians, they are whining about poor us, accusing someone of anti semitism, or calling someone racist, and God above knows Israel is a master when it comes to racism, having reinvented same and turned it into a fine art.

Supporting this lying murderous state says more about you (plural) than anything else you (plural) say or do. Swallowing the lies of this lying murderous state tells us how easily you swallow the propaganda and how eagerly you do so and how incapable you are of forming your own opinions..
.
You (plural) are more to be pitied than yelled at; however, right now after reading the pro Israeli crap in this thread yelling seems to be the most effective way to vent my never ending disbelief that there are actually people out there who continue to utter such garbage. It is now 2005. For God's sakes, isn't it time, way past time, you started to think for yourselves and notparrott Israeli propaganda? Or are you so brainwashed that you cannot do that?

>>>"...self absorbed Jewish selves"<<<


Word of advice to "angie", the repugnant racist anti-Israel hack: get the hell and stay the hell out of this place.

Not only does your credibility remain below zero, you can't be taken seriously for you're a professional hate manger.

Poor Sefarad. Just as I expected. A reaction that, in itself, tells us all we need to know about, or hear from, her. She really is Exhibit 1 when it comes to indoctrination of the Israeli propaganda. She makes the rest of the Isreali supporters pale in comparison. No one cares, Sefarad, where you hail from. You might think we do. We do not. And certainly being an Israeli supporter living outside that hell hole doesn't make you unique. Israeli supporters are mainly outside of Israel, didn't you know?

Hey, Critical Thinker, I will break my long-standing tradition of ignoring you here only to state the obvious. Tossing out the old time worn anti semite accusation is just that - time worn, expected, and BORING. When you cannot debate the issues, you do as Israel does - accuse, incite, and threaten.

It has not worked for me before, and it will not work for me now. So do your bloody best. Accusing me and others of all the things Israel is known for is about all you and yours are capable of doing.

And as for threatening me to get off this site, well, that is, indeed, a new low even for you. What are you? Afraid the readers might become curious enough to research for themselves any comments I might make? Or are you part of the editorial board, or are you paying for the site upkeep?

Arrogance, thou name is Critical Thinker with the list of aliases too numerous to mention.

>>>"My response to "Critical" Thinker
by Angie • Thursday, Apr. 07, 2005 at 9:26 AM

You Jews SHOULD be gassed to death in ovens-all of you! You are a hideous race of subhuman racist beasts whom the entire world would be better off without! In my view, the "central tragedy" of the past century is that Hitler did NOT get rid of you all when he had the chance. The world today would be a far more peaceful place were Judaism and all Jews to be eliminated from our midst".

And in the Hidden Posts this little piece of forgery was pointed out to me. This is the kind of stuff one expects, and always gets, from the supporters of Israel. It is known to the world as character assassination, inciting hatred of a different kind, and is the work of foolish, mindless robots pretending to be humans. However, dear people, it is the norm, and like all the rest of the rantings and accusations, typical and expected.

Zionists lie because they have to lie. There *is* no honest defense of ethnic cleansing.

Don't delude yourself every single anti-Zionist or non-Zionist here doesn't see through the racism your pathetic drama-jerking tirade is tainted with.

Make no mistake, last year you proved yourself a full blown anti-Jewish racist on another IMC and your latest spectacle of puke proves that matters have only become worse in that department. Your racism sure as hell matters; pointing it out sure isn't boring.
Where you're concerned, the notoriously boring, sleep inducing part here is your self-righteous arrogance and Jenin massacre lies; your racism is the vicious twist with which you garnish your ultra-moonbat excrement-cloaked-in-artistic-soul-wannabe screeds that needs to be pointed out for the sake of those in doubt about whether pure benevolence is not what makes you tick and which will haunt you every time you rear your ugly hate-mongering and racist head here.

With the exception of the racist portion of your ravings, I actually laugh off your above screed. You've long been an I'm-ready-for-my-close-up-Mr. Demille-fool and you yourself know it deep down inside, and it's driving you nuts. Have you considered that Scottie may be exchanging words with you just for the sake of getting a kick out of rending (most of) your arguments to shreds since it's so easy to do?

Sefarad did an adequate job of casting light on the true motives of your hatred for any sort of Israeli military action for whatever purpose and transparent advocacy of Palestinian terror.

Angie, I love the way you railed into these two indoctrinated idiots and hit on so many byoooooteeful points!! If these two are any indication of average zionist sanity, we can expect them all to reach full-blown mass psychosis next week and just start shoving each other into tree chippers and shit. I mean how insane can a culture get before it just collapses and bleeds out like an ebola victim?

Luv ya Angie. But see your point about the waste of time factor. They're just hopelessly nuts, no point even addressing them. _I_ liked your stuff though

I'd bet a million dollars that "Angie Fan" is either: (1) Angie or 2) Wendy Campbell

Or 3) JA

Angie + JA + Wendy Campbell = bucket full of garbage

As for Jenin, the facts are:

1) Palestinians and Israel-haters lied, and exaggerated against Israel, as always

2) There was no "massacre." Over three days of fighting with armed terrorists resulted in about 50 deaths, and 20 Israeli soldier deaths.

"Jenin" was not destroyed. A small section of blocks was.

But as always, the Israel-haters around the world lie and exaggerate against Israel in obsessive fashion.

And again, as I said above, the same year that this happened, Thailand killed 87 Muslims in one day, and they weren't armed terrorists but protesters.

The 87 that thailand killed was forgotten about instantly.

But the 53 Palestinians (most of whom were armed terrorists) that Israel killed in three days of fighting was turned into 9823893289328932 websites, documentaries, and worlwide attention.

Sorry, "anti-zionist" lying freaks, those are the facts, and your cute little word games, or ridiculous drawn-out angie-like ranting bullshit, won't change it.

"I ... am Catholic"

Huh? You claim to be a CHRISTIAN?? That's amazing! What does the Christian ideal have to do with bloodthirstiness, which is the only way to explain your "too bad more weren't killed" comment? What happened to thou shall not kill? How about thou shall not bear false witness? Self-delusion still counts as lying

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11317178%255E2703,00.html

Thailand killed 87 Muslim protesters in one day.

Isn't it strange that "THE LEFT" - the allegedly "peace activist" left -- is INFINITELY MORE offended by Israel killing 50-something MOSTLY ARMED TERRORISTS than they are over Thailand killing 87 UNARMED PEACEFUL PROTESTERS?

Why aren't countless documentaries being made about the Thailand incident (or hundreds of other incidents like it over the last 10 years?)

Everyone is obsessed with lying about and demonizing Israel. It's a world tradition. If Israel does nothing wrong, accuse it of stuff. If Israel does X wrong, lie and claim that Israel did 100X.

The "fuck you serad" person above wants islamic terrorists to win and rule. That's why he is upset that someone else wants them to disappear/die.

Let's not forget: 4) Truth Warper, and 5) ANGEL. The fourth may well be that "fan".


The bucket of garbage includes the two latter too (in case you're in doubt, search above for the "Israeli "soldiers" " giveaway snipe).

Here's the rub, Idiot Joe: if Thailand had the same PATTERN of killing 1000+ per year perennially, 1/3 children, while at the same time CONSTANTLY trying to force their way into my mind and twist it into alignment with their deluded genocidal hatred, I know I and everyone else would think they were every bit as loathesome as you.

BUT THEY DON'T

First off, thanks for ramming into those four anti-Zionist, anti-truth and anti-common sense people you mentioned in the author field.

Now to the main point: if you have a beef with the intensity of Israeli propaganda or consider it strident, then the blame lies at the feet of the Palestinians who created that unnecessary mess to begin with, the Palestinians who have spread lies about what has happened over the last 4+ years, and people like you who are only too happy to chip in and be a useful tool for them in disseminating same.

Curious that you purport to know what everyone would think. Angie's arrogance has company.

I was waiting for the "self defence" excuse to pop up. Thanks, Sefarad. You're always there babbling about terrorists and self defence as if only Arabs were terrorists whereas in reality Israel - surprise, surprise - has been practising terror tactics since its inception usually against unarmed or poorly armed people. And that's the Israeli way.
Keep neighbouring countries unarmed so the Israeli military can go in and kill at will as they have been doing in the Palestinian Territories.

It's entertaining to hear Critical Thinker (what a misnomer!) accuse me of hate mongering, this, of course after he wrote the following piece of hate:

>>>"Where you're concerned, the notoriously boring, sleep inducing part here is your self-righteous arrogance and Jenin massacre lies; your racism is the vicious twist with which you garnish your ultra-moonbat excrement-cloaked-in-artistic-soul-wannabe screeds that needs to be pointed out for the sake of those in doubt about whether pure benevolence is not what makes you tick and which will haunt you every time you rear your ugly hate-mongering and racist head here".

Hehehe. The real Critical Thinker is unveiled, what?

Israel's continual whine about "security" and "self defence" is the biggest farce in modern day history. What it is, of course, is just another excuse to expand its ever expanding borders. It suits Israel's purpose which is to create the Greater Israel, a plan that's been ongoing quietly bit by bit in hopes that the world won't notice.

Safarad seems to think everyone in the Arab world is a "terrorist". She never once has mentioned self defence for the thousands of Palestinians who have been blown away by the cache of Israeli weapons.

And, of course, Critical Thinker is probably related to a settler fanatic (or may even be one himself). I note he is still parroting his hero, Gehrig, with respect to the "close up" bit, another example of how inept he really is. .

Suffice to say the hatred embedded in his wee mind is as alive today as it was before he was banned from SF IMC.

And speaking of racism, one cannot be more racist than a state who has "jews only" roads now, can one?

What on earth is your issue, sicko? Your pet just past away? That's what's thrown you into a fit that you feel obliged to act out *here"? Guess no one else, much less out there (off cyber) would even be willing to listen to your far out hate packed, off the deep end drama-queen diatribes today.

Nothing I've written detracts from your being a racist hate monger, and your conduct indicates you're even wearing that description as a badge of honor.

Had modern Israel not existed, you'd probably have bemoaned the facts that ancient Israel existed within borders encompassing even territory on the east bank of the Jordan and Jewish leaders' military and diplomatic triumphs over their adversaries. It's a safe guess you'd utilize such an outlet for your Jew hatred on some Jew hating forum.

>>>"And, of course, Critical Thinker is probably related to a settler fanatic (or may even be one himself). I note he is still parroting his hero, Gehrig, with respect to the "close up" bit, another example of how inept he really is.

Under duress I'd opt for being related to a "settler fanatic" any day over aligning myself with your benighted venomous pro-Palestinian psyche. You're fast losing every, shall we say, evenhanded bone in your poisonous body.
Unlike you, I'm not apprehensive about echoing someone else's quips when I find it right on target as if it detracts from my value as a human with an ample sense of self worth. I don't suffer from demons of insecurity like you do; you'd be terrified of finding yourself repeating someone else's utterings.
What are you really about on these sites? A creature spouting hatred and gobs of irrational and even erratic rants with abysmal foundation in reason, logic and facts.

>>>"Suffice to say the hatred embedded in his wee mind is as alive today as it was before he was banned from SF IMC."<<<

You're deluded even on this count, bozo. To your chagrin, I remained on there up until a year ago and your overseer knows it.

>>>"And speaking of racism, one cannot be more racist than a state who has "jews only" roads now, can one?"<<<

If your vitriolic excuse for a mind cared about the truth, you would have accepted the facts that these roads were paved with the sole intent of helping *attacked* Jews (a phenomenon you appear to approve of and would like to see more of) commute more safely (which you appear to detest through every fiber of your being), and ALL vehicles bearing Israeli license plates may use them regardless of drivers' religion.
But we know you don't care beans about the truth when it doesn't serve your Israel bashing and Jew-bashing purposes.


Go see a shrink. You need it. A few potent meds may be in order. Obviously hugs won't cut it this time.

Hey "Truth Angel JA Angie (fuck you losers)"

israel does not typically kill 1000 a year.

Before the intifada, israel was barely killing anyone.

During the intifada, israel has killed like 3500 over five years or whatever it is.

That's about 700 a year.

That's under 2 people a day.

More than 2 people die each day in CHICAGO + DETROIT.

Some "genocide," huh?

Palestinians never stop terrorism against Israel, because they're against Israel even existing. Anti-zionist freaks like angie/JA/etc. don't want terrorism to ever stop against Israel, because THEY TOO are against Israel even existing. Same with white supremecists, neo-nazis, antisemites, and a tiny handful of ultra-ultra-ultra religious retards with wacky ideas in their heads.

As for Angie, her ranting is amusing. She waxes poetic, makes sure to type very nice, long, dramatic sentences, yet she continues to just spew bullshit.

We normal people should stop bumping this thread to the top, considering it has "massacre" in the title, and everyone knows there was no actual "massacre" or anything close.

If you "anti-israel" loons were REALISTIC in your criticisms, you'd get more s upport. But you're unrealistic. And dishonest. ANd you just want israel wiped out, like the islamic terrorists. That's why you defend them so.

Later, beotchez.

Sefahoor: "Have you heard of the doctrine of just war and the obligation and the right to self defense ?"

Real good point. So why don't Palestinians get to use this argument too? They're the ones whose land got invaded and EVEN NOW are getting it stolen out from under them, a process that victimizes them way more than the Israelis. Uh-huh, now you're going to pull ancient history out of your ass again. Get this: nobody but bigots like you gives two shits who lived there 2000 years ago. Nowhere else on earth is ancient history considered to trump modern history in this way.

What makes Israel so exceptional?

It's real simple: a triumvirate of total assholes (Jewish supremacists; Christian "End is nigh" maniacs; infinitely greedy imperialists) have reached a consensus on this and have railroaded everyone else. Along the way, they've milked the Holocaust for every dribble of political leverage it was worth. Of course, they're all mental lepers whose agendas have nothing to do with reason or morality, and only a tragic historical ignoramus would fall for their obscene arguments. Unfortunately, there are a lot of those in the world. That's actually a fourth set of assholes, and the most contemptible of all. They don't even have a self-interest in this; they just go along because it's easy and they're weak.

CT: ad modern Israel not existed, you'd probably have bemoaned the facts that ancient Israel existed within borders encompassing even territory on the east bank of the Jordan and Jewish leaders' military and diplomatic triumphs over their adversaries.

>>>"Poor Israel! Always the victim, always the one most harmed, always waiting for someone to feel guilty. Aaaah! It's always about having adversaries as if no one else on earth ever had (have) adversaries. Look around the world for God's sakes. People everywhere are dying from sickness, starvation, mistreatment, and slaughter. Blah blah blah..."<<<

Just more inane drivel with inflammatory overtones.
"Angie" complains about Israel continually having adversaries "as if one else on earth ever had (have) adversaries" when she does little else on the internet than perpetually rant and rave about Israel being "terrorist", "evil" and "vile", blaming it (with the exception of the US) of most afflictions that befall mankind, as if the Palestinians are always at center stage and virtually nothing else noteworthy occurs on this planet. It's comical to witness her of all people urging us to look around and take note that "people everywhere are dying from sickness, starvation, mistreatment, and slaughter" when she barely even gives a damn and would never pass on an opportunity to ignore these tragedies in order to heap yet more denunciations on Israel and its Jewish citizens.
"Angie" does her utmost to get Israel to feel guilty for protecting its citizens and property while she strives to absolve its enemies of any guilt. It's just so transparent.

>>>"Or are you so mired in your self pitying mindset that there is no other world out there?"<<<

Why don't you take a long hard look in the mirror, ask this question of yourself and then wonder why you spend time here clashing with us so that you can wallow yet more in your own self-induced self pity oblivious to a few of the less fortunate out there who could have used your righteous indignation as a possible lever for the betterment of their condition if you weren't so bent on antisemitically charging at me and other Jewish Israelis?

CT: Under duress I'd opt for being related to a "settler fanatic" any day over aligning myself with your benighted venomous pro-Palestinian psyche. You're fast losing every, shall we say, evenhanded bone in your poisonous body.

>>>"Actually, fool, I am "aligning myself" with truth and justice wherever it may be, blah blah"<<<

You could barely be further than aligned with the truth. You're a parody of yourself, notably re your Jenin massacre accusations.

CT:Unlike you, I'm not apprehensive about echoing someone else's quips when I find it right on target as if it detracts from my value as a human with an ample sense of self worth. I don't suffer from demons of insecurity like you do; you'd be terrified of finding yourself repeating someone else's utterings

>>>"For God's sakes, get a bleeding grip, will you? If you want to "echo" someone else's "quips" (is that what you call them??), go ahead and do so. Or can't you think up a "quip" for yourself? Blah blah..."<<<

Did I already say she's erratic?

CT: If your vitriolic excuse for a mind cared about the truth, you would have accepted the facts that these roads were paved with the sole intent of helping *attacked* Jews (a phenomenon you appear to approve of and would like to see more of) commute more safely (which you appear to detest through every fiber of your being), and ALL vehicles bearing Israeli license plates may use them regardless of drivers' religion.

>>>"Oh? How long did it take you to come up with this wee piece of nonsense? Name another country, will you, which has a similar policy?"<<<

Just because the retard "Angie" hasb't heard of another state that implemented such a measure to try to get some of its citizens out of harm's way, she label this effort a "piece of nonsense". Sheer brilliance...Einstein has just been put to shame!

>>>"Especially when Palestinian lands have been destroyed to make way for said roads, and where Palestinian roads have been destroyed and/or turned into cow paths. Do you think we all fell off the turnip truck yesterday? Blah blah blah"<<<

I think you and the voices in your head that keep you company are virtually impervious to common sense and logic where Jews are concerned. It all goes back to your covert desire to your lust of seeing Jewish blood spilled, of seeing yet more Jews getting slaughtered. To that end you'd do everything humanly possible to incite the loudest riot so that Palestinian-owned *property* will be considered more sacred than Jewish *lives" and spared so that more Jews will get butchered. As far as I care, you get the bird.

Sefarad :

"Have you heard of the doctrine of just war and the obligation and the right to self defense ?"

Anonymous:

"Real good point. So why don't Palestinians get to use this argument too?"

Sefarad:

The Palestinians cannot use this argument because it only applies to the attacked side, which, in this case, is Israel.

Anonymous:

" They're the ones whose land got invaded and EVEN NOW are getting it stolen out from under them, a process that victimizes them way more than the Israelis. Uh-huh, now you're going to pull ancient history out of your ass again. Get this: nobody but bigots like you gives two shits who lived there 2000 years ago. Nowhere else on earth is ancient history considered to trump modern history in this way."

Sefarad:

So you know history but you don't care, because, according to you if a group of people (the Palestinians in this case), invades somebody's else land, those invaders have the right to do so and the native population of this country has to leave.

Why don't you tell me your current address? Perhaps it would be convenient for me to move to the US and occupy your home. As I am a newcomer, you will have to leave.

Anonymous:

"What makes Israel so exceptional? "

I wonder that: there are about 200 countries in the world. Why do you anti-Semites single out Israel?

It's real simple: a triumvirate of total assholes (Islamic fascists, neo-Nazis and Stalinists; infinitely greedy imperialists) have reached a consensus on this and have railroaded everyone else. Along the way, they don't want to learn a lesson from the Holocaust . Of course, they're all mental lepers whose agendas have nothing to do with reason or morality, and only a tragic historical ignoramus would fall for their obscene arguments. Unfortunately, there are a lot of those in the world. That's actually a fourth set of assholes, and the most contemptible of all. They don't even have a self-interest in this; they just go along because it's easy and they're weak.


OBSERVATION:

You have no arguments. First, I was a liar, I couldn't be Christian because I support Israel's right to fight terrorism.

Then I tell you the doctrine on just war, self-defense, etc. was originated in Christian theologists.

Now your argument is other: the newcomers' right has to prevail over the native population's, and anyone who opposes it is a bigot.

And now you come out suggesting that talking about the Holocaust is against reason and morality.

Three teenagers were shot dead by the IDF in Gaza today.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/562862.html

So much for Israel's ability to curb its murderous behaviour regardless of any "period of calm". Killing unarmed Palestinian people, especially children, is what this vile and evil state does best. Israel's biggest fear is that peace will break out. It's always been its biggest fear. What would they do? Who would they assassinate? Who would they ethnic cleanse? Whose homes would they destroy? Whose lands would they steal? No doubt we'll be hearing plenty about this triple murder as Israel once again lies to the world.

How difficult it must be for Sefarad and like minded people to face the reality that is Israel. Just above we have her prattling about Palestinian people not being permitted to defend themselves because "Israel was attacked first". My God! This is not an argument. This is lunacy, so far removed from the truth so as not to be read without erupting into peals of laughter. Excuse me.

Israeli supporters rant about "a land with no people", but that's just another nasty bit of mendacity, a myth like so many others that have been nurtured for years. To believe this nonsense, much less continue to sprout it, gives us an indication of the level of mentality, if any, we're dealing with. This barefaced lie was the forerunner of all the other barefaced lies that followed and which continue to this day.

That Israel continues to get away with it would be a mystery until we remember (or are reminded of) the holocaust, and we realize how the jewish people who lost their lives in this horrific event are being used and abused to further the zionist cause. The exploitation of the dead in this fashion is foulsome and vile, but that doesn't stop the zionist entity from using it to further their own aims and ambitions.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p38_Garaudy.html
http://thepost.baker.ohiou.edu/archives/050898/turnstile.html
http://www.mediamonitors.net/sambahour9.html
http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article348.html
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/oct2002/akram1002.htm

I hardly expected Sefarad or Critical Thinker (who wouldn't recognize a critical thought if he fell over one) to comment on the current breach of international law and international treaties that Israel in engaged in by dumping its waste (some 10,000 tonnes a month for God's sakes) in the West Bank.. However, with Israel laying claim to Palestinian water resources as well as Palestinian lands, causing contamination of water in Nablas surely wouldn't bother them any now, would it?

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/560433.html
http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1512

My comments with respect to jews only roads is a legitimate comment, a reality, and if this activity doesn't define racism, I don't know what does.

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_id=7723
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=6909§ionID=107

Equally mindboggling are the countless checkpoints at which Israeli soldiers, armed and arrogant, make Palestinian people wait for two hours or twelve, depending on the mood these inhumane terrorists happen to be in at the time. It doesn't matter if Palestinian people are ill, desperately in need of medical attention, or about to give birth. We are all aware of Palestinian women who have had to go behind a bush or a boulder for some privacy and deliver their infants, and tragically some of those newborns have died before they could obtain medical asisstance. I suppose the newborn would be regarded by Sefarad and those of similar ilk as a "terrorist", even if the scrap of humanity is but minutes old. Treated like animals in their own towns and villages. Astonishing, perhaps, what a smidgen of power does for one, isn't it?

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=2609
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6322
http://www.amnesty.ca/women/news/view.php?load=arcview&article=2359&c=Women+News

On 1 August 2003 Israel's parliament passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The law was condemned by the international community and human rights organizations everywhere. Of course, Israel was unfazed by the controversy, which is about all we expect from this racist, theocratic, nationalist state pretending to be a democracy.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2003-08/13beal.cfm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0801-07.htm
http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d0801jh.htm#two

Sefarad's absorption with terrorists, especially Palestinian "terrorists" is typical of the mindset of Israeli supporters. She (and they) cannot, or will not, look beyond the fiction that's been ingrained in their little minds, but that's all it is, fiction pure and simple

It was not Palestinians or Arabs, and it certainly wasn't the lateYasser Arafat, who are responsible for launching terrorism into this region. Ignorant and racist US and Israeli media want us to believe that, but the truth is much different.

Back in the 1940s, two jewish terrorists groups were busy introducing terror techniques into what was then Palestine. Yitzhak Shamir, leader of the Stern Gang, and Menachem Begin leader of the larger Irgun, Zvi Leuhmi, working in tandem, were responsible for such deadly activities as car bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, hijackings of military vehicles and (gasp) the lynching of British soldiers in the olive groves outside of Jerusalem. They were also responsible for the car-bombing of the King David Hotel, wherein 92 people were killed, and it was those two terrorist groups who carred out the massacre of civilians at the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin.

http://www.mediamonitors.net
http://www.doublestandards.org/unbunche.html

Tragically for the Arab peoples the Deir Yassin massacre was only the beginning. There followed a period of brutal displacement, occupation, and death -- and there was plenty of death. Some things never change, eh?

http://www.angelfire.com/al/quwaizani/israel.html
http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm
http://www.moqawama.tv/isr_aggr/is_massa.htm
http://www.israel-state-terrorism.org/israelimassacres.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/isra-o29.shtml
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisksabra.html

The third anniversary of the Jenin massacre is almost upon us. The fact that this death and destruction has been glossed over by Israel and its supporters speaks volumes. . Again, the international community, as cowardly as ever when it comes to this terrorist state, stood by and did nothing. I wrote extensively about Jenin in the summer of 2003.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/07/1625539_comment.php

Also see:
http://www.wclac.org/stories/jenin/
http://groups.msn.com/ISRAELISTATETERRORISM/jeninmassacrephotos.msnw?Page=1
http://www.israelshamir.net/friends/numbers.html

Sabra and Shatila was a perfect opportunity to remove terrorist, Ariel Sharon, from the Israeli government scene once and for all. However, the slap on the wrist resulting from the Kahan Commission of Inquiry certainly didn't constitute the termination of this monster's career. It should have. He ought to be existing in a prisoin cell from his days as the leader of Unit 101, a terrorist group responsible for numerous massacres beginning with El-Bureig in August of 1953.

http://www.ntcsites.com/palestine/photogallerysabrashatilahmassacre/
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W14922BDA
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisksabra.html

And let's not forget Qana, something Critical Thinker not only forgets but dismisses as "an accident". So does Uri Avnery, as no doubt CT remembers when I asked Uri his opinion last year, but that doesn't change the facts and the evidence, and it certainly hasn't changed my mind.

http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=792
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51a/005.html
http://www.leb.net/qana/
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/robert_fisk_qana.html

With respect to "human shields", a few brief comments. Who exactly is using civilians as human shields? Surprise! Surprise. We know. We've seen Israeli soldiers using Palestinian civilians as human shields on our evening newscasts for God's sakes.. Who are you trying to fool, Sefarad?

http://makeashorterlink.com/?W29925BDA
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0426/p06s02-wome.html
http://www.apomie.com/jpnweeklyroundup.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/15/1029113984644.html?oneclick=true
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?xid=916

With respect to accusations of "hate mongering" and all the other bile dumped on me above by the likes of Critical Thinker and his pals, let's hear some Israeli hate mongering, shall we? Let him (her) who is without sin and all that.

>>>"On the very day world leaders were commemorating the holocaust at the United Nations headquarters in New York mid-January, an Israeli Jewish professor at Haifa University (HU) was telling his students that "Arabs are scum, vermin and dirty animals that ought to be exterminated."

Exterminated? Sounds like Nazi Germany to me. But this racist wasn't finished.

>>>"In an earlier lecture at the HU History Department, Baka'ti reportedly told students that "crime surges in the veins of an Arab and that Arabs were parasites living off humanity."

Reaction from the international community? Zero. Imagine if this were reversed and someone was saying such things about jews?

And then there's this:

>>>"In 2003, during a visit to the so-called Bible-Belt States in the U.S., Beny Elon—then Israel's Tourism Minister—was reported to have told American evangelical leaders that "Jews and Christians ought to cooperate to exterminate Islam off the map." Once again, the nefarious remarks, which were reported by the Israeli press, drew no condemnation from Jewish leaders".

There's that word "exterminate" again. For more hate filled racist remarks of this nature, see:

http://www.palestinetimes.net/issue151/news.html#10
http://ga3.org/jvfp/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=2622493

>>>"In April 2002, the new chairman of the National Religious Party, Effie Eitam, made extreme comments, calling the Arab citizens of Israel "a cancer in the state" and "a threat to Israeli democracy".

Ye'ah, as if Israel had a democracy.

http://www.mossawacenter.org/en/projects/anti_racism.html
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3190&CategoryId=11

There are thousands of such instances of racist hatred by Israel towards Palestinians, and it is the double standard, the blatant hypocrisy that allows such remarks to go unchallenged.

angie stop calling my house. I will not go back to Canada, with or with out you. I am not the father of your child. please stop telling everyone that you are my secret wife. and for the love of god! stop sending those pictures of you dressed up as the green slave girl of Rigel-3.

As to the novelty: the issue of the garbage dumping in Judea-Samaria doesn't belong in this inane thread trying to call attention to the anniversary of a massacre that never occurred. I would have addressed it had you complained about it on a thread where it belongs and refrained from making your nefarious racist anti-Jewish remark above for which you obviously never intend to apologize nor recant.

The remainder of your kneejerk drawn out spiel is simply your standard-issue vomit show and I dismiss it as nothing else.

What I have done with my above post, dear people, is touch on some of the issues I've talked about in the past, and I gave links to assist you in understanding my opinions, and to also show you that if I am all that Critical Thinker says I am (hehehe), then certainly the vast majority of the universe feels likewise.

I provided not one, but multiple, articles for every comment I uttered above, and that is a hell of a lot more than Sefarad, Critical Thinker, and their ilk have done.

The issue of Israeli waste disposal in the West Bank doesn't need its own thread in this instance. I used it as another example of the arrogance and indifference of your precious hell hole towards the Palestinian people living in the region. The idea of Critical Thinker yelling at me for bringing it into this particular thread is laughable in its hypocrisy.

He accused me of just about everything except throwing out the baby with the bath water in a thread that is dealing with the third anniversary of the Jenin massacre, and you can rant all you want about there being no massacre, sir, but that doesn't change a thing. We all know otherwise, and so will the rest of the world come Judgment Day. As a professed Catholic, Sefarad ought to know the relevance of that comment. Lies won't help you then.

Critical Thinker and friends like to hurl accusations of racism, anti semitism (hehehe, guess the initial meaning of the word has undergone a change, eh??) at myself and others who dare (gasp) point out the atrocities, lies, and racism of Israel.

Let me state something emphatically, once and for all time.

a) I do not give much of a damn what you and your ilk say to me on this board or any other board. The lengths you go through to vilify myself and others is astonishing. It is all you are capable of doing because your mind is so bolted shut from the reality the majority of the world can see thatt all you can do is echo time worn and inappropriate propaganda. I am not impressed.

b) I do not, and never have, and never will consider Israel as any more important than any other place on earth, and I feel perfectly comfortable and justified in pointing out, as do the sane, intelligent people of the world, the evil that emanates from it, the atrocities that it has committed since its inception, and which it continues to carry out even as we speak

c) we did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday, nor the day before; in fact, at any time. History is there for the reading, and attempts by Israeli supporters to revise same do not work with us not now, not ever

d) I do not consider jews any more important or any less important than the rest of the people in the world because they are not. God created us all equal, and anyone pretending to be more than that is looked at in disdain by myself and independent thinkers everywhere

e) cries of anti semitism have become so commonplace these days that no one pays any attention. The word has lost its original meaning, its original purpose. Now people see it for what it has become, an attempt to (a) cease all criticism of this terrorist state, (b) as a tool to character assassinate people, (c) to allow Israel and its supporters to continue to carry out its plan for a Greater Israel at the expense of the Palestinian people and the Arab people before them.

If charges of anti semitism and racism and all the rest of it that Critical Thinker hurled at me in his posts above were meant to silence me and cause me to refrain from expressing my views, then (a) he has failed miserably just as he did in the past two years (b) he has never been able to substantiate any of his allegations because he can't. There is nothing in anything that I've said here or there or elsewhere that isn't the truth, and tonnes upon tonnes of documentation in libraries world wide back up my remarks.

Dumping waste in Nablas, preventing Palestinians from reaching medical assistance in a timely fashion, jews only roads, racist marriage laws, assassinations at will, building walls to ensure more and more of the Palestinian Territories is grabbed under the pretext of "security", making racial slurs about Arabs and Palestinians, in particular, treating Israeli Arabs as third and fourth class citizens, having the IDF occupying Gaza in large numbers to protect settlers and allow them to carry out atrocities against the Palestinian citizens therein. Less than 8,000 settlers amongst over 1.5 million Palestinians, and they do whatever they wish, wherever they wish, regardless of the circumstances. The mind boggles even more.

Don't whine about Israel to me. If it were such a perfect place with such perfect people and such high ideals, perhaps you can tell us (or not, who really cares?) why the army is virtually running the country? Why, when the Courts make decisions which are unfavourable but correct by law, the government can turn around and overrule the decision? Being a Judge in Israel must be, indeed, a difficult task especially when we recall how Orthodox MK Hendel opined following a decision he didn't agree with re allowing Arab Israelis to sit in the Knesset, that: "The composition of the High Court must be changed because it doesn’t take account of what public opinion wants".

Huh? Why bother having any Judges, then, if the composition of the Courts and the decisions rendered are not, gasp, what public opinion wants? I mean --- please!

If Israel is such a piece of heaven on earth, why, pray tell us, are so many people leaving? Why are so many people, particularly those of the Israeli "left", sending their children to schools in America or Europe? Why is it that the universities are unable to fill staff requirements? Why has token civility towards fellow Israelis gone from the usual arrogant dismissal to downright criminal? Why has the army become a breeding ground for the racist, bigoted "right'?

Israel does not need anyone from the outside to cause it grief.. It is being destroyed from the inside. It is being destroyed by forces within Israel, itself, by a people who have forgotten why Israel was formed initially, and where corruption, especially in the past even five years, has become rampant; where, if a Justice or a Minister puts forth a decision, "public opinion" will emerge in the form of demonstrations to convince a reversal. Therefore, the idea of one paying for one's crimes has become nothing more than a joke. Criminal activity within Israel, itself, has skyrocketed over the past few years with gangs fighting gangs over drugs, turf, control of illegal gambling, and the like.

It has become, as Ran HaCohen so correctly stated, "a haven for sadistic war criminals".

And this, dear people, is what Sefarad, Critical Thinker, and their ilk are defending.

Today I scanned through a somewhat "enlightening" collection of articles (???) under the incredulous title "The Assault on Freedom of Speech in Israel". I suggest everyone read it so that the next time anyone accuses you of uttering hate, anti semitic, and racist remarks, you can remember what "free speech" really means in Israel.

And now, happily, I am out of here until I feel an urge to see what the Isreali supporters have come up with over the next few months.

PS One final point. Forging my name over the Indymedia network is not going to stop me from expressing my views on this or any other conflict. The people who know me and my writing and my beliefs will recognize a forgery no matter how cleverly it is done. I am not, nor do I intend to, send disclaimers to various Indymedia sites world wide. So whoever you are you're wasting your damn time and taking up space on Indymedia sites that could be put to better use.

http://www.primechoice.com/philosophy/shelp/speechisrael.htm
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.08.15/news5.html
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h111301.html
http://www.mediamonitors.net/khalid44.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=6851

So Israel is far from being perfect. As if she's sincerely concerned. What's that despicable racist's point anyway? Canada too is far from perfection; for evidence, just read Canadian IMCs like Vancouver IMC. Hell, the overall condition of public health care in Israel, for example, is superior to Canada's ailing socialist inspired health care system. Also, the average level of criminal activity in Canada is higher than in Israel. And these are but two aspects of life juxtaposed in both states.

BTW, for the uninformed: you should have seen her go off like a crackerjack each time anyone would even remotely utter an anti-Arab, anti-Palestinian or anti-Muslim remark (leaving aside what she has regurgitated in this thread alone). Can we say "double standard"?

The bottom line remains that that self-aggrandizing and arrogant detestable anti-Jewish racist is still squarely wrong about herself being right on everything she's ever written about on the IMCs, and about the non-existant Jenin massacre in particular.

I'm actually laughing at angie right now.

This topic accuses Israel of a "massacre" in Jenin.

Only the fact is, there was no massacre.

In a few days of fighting, 50-something Palestinians, most of whom were armed "militants"/terrorists, died.

It wasn't a "massacre."

As I said above, within a year of that, Thailand killed 80-something UNARMED Muslim protesters in ONE DAY.

Yet, the new antisemitic Left didn't care about Thailand or say a word about it. They were too busy putting websites up demonizing Israel and exaggerating about Jenin.

Fifty dead Arabs don't constitute a massacre? How many Arabs would have to die before you call it a massacre? How many Jews have to die before you call it a massacre? Is it the same number? What number is it? Be specific.