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fucking end the war now
do you know what war is, america???
Nagina, a 12-year-old Afghan girl lies in a hospital bed in Kabul, October 13. Nagina and three of her neighbors said they were injured last night when a bomb hit their house, killing a 14-year-old girl. Hopes for a respite from U.S. led attacks on the Afghan capital Kabul came to nothing in the early hours of Saturday, as powerful explosions shattered the calm for a sixth straight night.
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Same with this site. I've never seen anyone post a picture of a WTC victim here. It's always whining about "indiscriminate" (bullshit!) bombing of civilians in Afghanistan. blah blah..
in other words, the US, and the US alone, kept alive about 20% of afghanistan's population.
to imply that we are cold and callous about afghani suffering is completely ignorant.
Get all the facts people - not just the ones that make you feel better.
Let me tell you the difference between this child and the children who died in the commercial airplanes and WTC disaster on 9/11:
1. The children killed by the Islamic terrorists were targets. The Afghan children are not.
2. The wounded Afghan child you picture is alive. You don't see pictures of the children killed by the terrorists, because they were vaporized in a cloud of jet fuel, steel and concrete. There are few remains.
In case you haven't discerned this information: they Afghan children are not our targets-- unless of course they are shooting at our soldiers, which many of them are, since the Taliban recruit pre-teenagers.
Only those who believe the Taliban propaganda actually think we're targetting children. Contrary to radical belief, Americans know that we are doing all that is humanly possible to avoid civilian casualties-- But yes, Dorothy, we're not in Kansas anymore, and very bad stuff happens in war!
If we Americans had our way, they would receive our aid, food and shelter. Unfortunately the oppressive Taliban makes this difficult, and we need to finish killing the oppressors and the immediate threat they pose to our Nation before feeding their children re-emerges as our #1 priority. Don't worry, it will become our priority due time, even though you doubt it.
On the other hand, here are the ACTUAL CHILD VICTIMS of the Taliban and Al Queda. Click on these links:
http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/0911memorial.cgi?step=individual&file_id=172
or
http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/0911memorial.cgi?step=individual&file_id=209
or
http://www.dallasnews.com/cgi-bin/0911memorial.cgi?step=individual&file_id=189
Unlike your assertion. this is not "speculation" on who the targets may or may not be. This is fact. They are not in refugee camps living off of US provided Aid. They are, in fact, dead. And, Al Queda has publicly claimed their goal of continued killing infidel men, women and children.
So, before you start trotting out pictures of children who are unfortunately wounded or killed by the war in Afghanistan, try to make a distinction between TARGETS and ACCIDENTS. You, and everyone else who doesn't represent the ideals of radical islam is a TARGET. Men, women and children.
Finally, the American Afghan community OVERWHELMINGLY supports this war-- and they understand the horrible consequences which include the death and injury of innocents.
and i think that the corporate media showed in great detail the grief and loss that people in new york experienced. if they chose to show the body parts, i would hope that that would just feed people's desire for peace and no more killing.
PK
anyone who eats up whatever their government feeds them are not patriots. they are idiots.
go join up with the taliban, they think like you do.
YOU WON'T SEE THE PICTURE OF THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE KILLED IN VIETNAM, IN INDONESIA (by the US islamist dictatorship), IN AFRICA, IN SOUTH AMERICA (from colombia to chile, mexico, argentina...)
You won't see cause you refuse to see it.
First you're blinded by this BS identity fiction fueled by the incredible level of ignorance and hypocrisy that gave power to the worldwide totalitarian leadership.
In addi(c)tion you fantasize, you rave about yourself as being strong but your "strengh" comes from your cowardly submission to a totalitarian order. Just like cops, military and economy soldiers, terrorists, religious fanatics...
Send your supremacist verbal diarrhoea ELSEWHERE !
Anarchy is Order
I have 2 cousins who are Marines in Afghanistan right now. They and their friends and families report back by email what they know is happening (as they did in the Gulf War).
They would not be flying planes for our country if they were targetting the civilians of Afghanistan. Nor would the citizens be supporting them so overwhelmingly.
God, the stupidity of these messages can sometimes be astounding. It's as though those thousands of military guys over in Afghanistan aren't Americans and can't think for themselves.
ryan, your sad argumentation can be dismissed pretty easily: you don't know. all you have to go on is the corporate media and apparently some anecdotes from your friends in the marines. as history has shown, there *are* conspiracies. there *are* complete deceptions. these *have* involved the bush family and the military-industrial complex in the usa. period. for you to grandstand as if you *know* what is happening here is bullshit. admit you dont know, admit we dont have all the facts, but dont act like a complete asshole because you think you have all the answers.
Thank you for your post. Your position is the underlying nationalist fascism that the more rational posters disguise with attempts at reasoned debate. It is good to expose this disgusting symptom of global imperialism --- history will want to remember it after we crush it out of existence.
Signed,
la resistance!
I was hoping for a more reasoned response from 'the other side' but sadly all i've seen is statements that anyone who disagrees with their statements do so because they're brainwashed. Not much depth there.
I guess its easier to believe in vast conspiracies, omnipotent political families with secret agendas, complicated plots what never get revealed with real proof. It must be more fun and more romantic though.
The political spectrum is not a straight line, its a circle where extreme left and extreme right meet in paranoia!
THANKS FOR THE GREAT COME BACK TO THIS SITE!
Not haveing been in combat I can't say how they would be obeyed but you obviously are very experienced in the military (or would not speak with the authority you do)and must have been so please give us your first hand experiences. I am always willing to listen.
Depleted uranium weapons, cluster bombs, alliances with terrorist groups like the Taliban and Northern Alliance, etc are all in violation. I could go on and on. Hell, take a look at Nicaragua, where the US was found *guilty* of violating international law and they *ignored* the ruling?!
etc etc etc
American soldiers are not taught to obey orders without question.
To say otherwise is simply not true.
This fact needs to be recognized and arguments shaped with this in mind. To classify all soldiers as stupid sheep (while at the same time acknownledging they come from the 'exploited classes') is wrong and can invalidate otherwise good arguments.
While not as provable, I would argue that the soldiers deployed overseas are aware of what they are doing. Know about the Northern Alliance, the effects of cluster bombs, etc. I doubt many troops in vietnam did not know that the ARVN officers tended to be corrupt for example. And I would venture that most soldiers today know more about the effects of their weapons than do most civilians, including most 'protesters'.
There is an argument that in a closed society like a military unit, some group think can enter and shape the conclusions drawn from this knowledge, but again, that is not the same as saying the soldiers are ignorant.
Again, you cannot let stereotypes, wishful thinking or outdated Holiwood movies shape an argument. If you want to oppose a war, oppose the military or oppose whatever, then do so from a basis of facts. And one fact is that the US soldier is not a mindless, ignorant pawn.
You may disagree with his or her actions or conclusions -- and I am not here to dispute your opinion of the war -- but do so on a basis or fact.
As I, its not as easy to prove what a large group of people do or do not know or how they act on the individual level. I could probably get more anedotal (yeah, spelling is off)stories as could you. But I do still hold to this belief.
I did in the above messages.
Those opposed to the actions of the U.S. are free to voice their opinion. However, before any of you make off the cuff remarks toward the government for slaughtering innocent people, you should consider the fact that all of this could have been avoided if the Taliban had turned over Al Queda. Also think about this...if the U.S. military wasn't willing to fight and die for the ideals set by our forefathers, you wouldn't be allowed to "voice" your opinion about the military strikes and our government.
You can bet that some of you that are criticizing the military and government right now would by cying your eyes out and asking why we didn't act if any one of your loved ones was killed in a terrorist act or an act of war.
BOTTOM LINE: If you hate the actions the U.S. takes to defend your freedoms and the loss of "innocent" lives, I'm sure you can find another country to live in. Keep in mind though, you won't be free to voice your opinions like you are in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
I say again, the mission of the military is not to intentionally inflict casualties on civilians. And any Sailor, Marine, Soldier or Airman that feels that is part of his mission should re-evaluate him/herself and consider leaving the service. The mission is to kill the enemy and degrade his ability and desire to fight. In the course of accomplishing the mission civilian lives will be lost.
That's one of the prices for your freedom.
An equal or possibly greater price is the loss of American servicemen. A price that servicemen are willing to pay at anytime so every American and naturalized citizen can enjoy FREEDOM.
Now for the phone tapping thing. You've watched to many movies. But since you seem to be so knowledgeable of the law, I guess you know it takes a court order to legally "bug" a phone. If the court order isn't obtained then any evidence is inadmissable in court. Bottom line, without the court order you go free regardless. Why? Because some ACLU punk will claim your rights have been violated.
Enough about that, you are trying to move me away from the original discussion, the U.S. military DOES NOT intentionally target civiliains. To date I have not intentionally fired on a civilian and none of the units I have been assigned to have been given the order to do so.
And, yes, that is first hand knowledge of modern warfare. Come to the present and talk with current warriors vice a disgruntled Vietnam vet. I bet the vast majority of current military personnel are fully commited to the current war, not because they are bran washed but because a direct assualt was launched against the people of the United States on September 11.
>No evidence proving Bin Laden or any Afghan committed the attacks.
Well, for starters OBL is not an Afghan, he's a Suadi. Further more, if you research you will find the vast majority of the Taleban were Afghan refugees raised in camps in Pakistan and trainined by the Pakistani intelligence service. Those that are not of Afghan refugee descent are Arabs. Just for your information, Afghans are not and do not consider themselves Arabs. Yes, they are muslim, but not Arabs.
I'm sure you watch the news and must have noted the large number of Arab fighters the NA captured. If you pay close attention you will note the Afghan fighters are being given amnesty and the Arab fighters are being imprisoned by the Afghan NA.
So, if by some chance OBL is not behind the attacks, the actions of the U.S. are still justified since he has been behind a number of attacks on U.S. personnel and assets in the past. Not to mention he has been a financial and fundamental backer of the Taliban which was not the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
You continually spout off about the infringement on your rights by the U.S. government yet you seem to thing the infringement on the rights of the Afghan people by the Taliban and Al Queda is justified and right, otherwise you wouldn't be so opposed to the destruction of the two.
Enough Said.
According to what Ive seen on ABC NBC CBS CNN and my local affiliate stations as well as The NEW YORK TIMES and NPR, I'd say the US is getting closer to ending the war the osamatalibanalqada started.
So hang in there. Dude in that picture has crazy eyes man. Hospitals are icky to. Bummer day for him.
I'm hoping the US turned many thousands of the osamatalibanalqada into dust for each person like the one in the pic. Ol' crazy eyes.
I guess around three thousand unaccounted for at the site of the former World Trade Center in NYC. Twenty five thousand Ive heard escaped from when the first plane hit till the second building fell.
The osamatalibanalqada has had its head and arms sliced from its body now. Thousands of vehicles and structures and fighters have been eliminated.
You say "humping end the war now". I say we're getting there bud. Hold your horses.
Face it, the anti-government left is wrong again.
When will you people realize that the word of a "public official" is worthless? WAKE UP! WAKE UP!
#2: I dont understand why Dick Cheney is on all the Sunday pundit shows crowing about this video tape. I thought the "credible evidence" they had was already delivered to Tony Blair et al. Why the hell is this tape such an important discovery for them?
#3: Why is Paul Wolfowitz going on about the "insane conspiracy theories" that keep plaguing him in his nightmares?
you people are the most gullible idiots in the world. believe your stupid osama bin laden conspiracy theory. the whole world is laughing at you.
The release of the tape should end any further discussion as to whether the response of the U.S. is justified....IT IS!
Now all we have to do is track him down and kill him. It is only fair the American people and the world have the opportunity to see his lifeless body and it not be buried in a cave by bombing. In other words, definitive proof he is dead.
Still think Osama bin Laden is a "convenient scapegoat for the corporate-controlled media" ?
Oh, wait... perhaps the tape is a fabrication. I mean, those voices in Arabic could have easily been dubbed by some malevolent US intelligence agency. With my TV on mute and watching Osama's actual lip phonemes, I'm pretty sure I could make out the words, "All I want is a negotiable peace".
What a pathetic mistrust of American democracy most of you display! Instead of looking for vast, overarching conspiracies, why don't you try and ascertain the complexity of the current situation? To be quite honest with you, I never have understood much about radical politicos (on either side of the political spectrum). So many of you are so easily satisfied by one-sided arguments/finger pointing.
I wish human being's lifespans were greater—maybe then some of you would have enough time to grow up...
...only then would Indymedia become a useful news forum.
See:
http://www.indybay.org/2001/12/112079.php
http://www.indybay.org/2001/12/112013.php
Most of us barely took the time to check whether there were obscure Muslim clerics who doubted the tape's authenticity...
I mean after all, such men display a great capability for reason by the very fact that they subscribe to Islam—which we all know represents the very pinnacle of scientific thought—. : )
What the fuck were we thinking???
That's the Pentagon's response to the deaths of Afghan civilians killed by USAF bombs in the village of Chowkar Karez.
Bombing wasn't effective enough, it seems. During the air strike, "Many of the people in the village ... ran out of their homes, afraid that the bombs would fall on the homes. All witnesses stated that aircraft then returned to the area and began firing from guns." - they were bombed and then gunned down.
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1212-01.htm
So much for the "accidental" killing of non-combatants. But who cares about the Geneva convention? It's so 1920s.
By the way, I know some Afghans. Some of the women wear headscarves sometimes. I've learned that there is no one universal Islamic belief on this, or many other subjects, including drinking beer and observing Ramazan. Frankly, they are like anyone else.
The Taliban seems to be despised, as are many of the Mujad (except for the late Massoud, who is a heroic figure). Things were good there 25 years ago, before the Soviet invasion. I was told that, except for a lack of computer use, Afghani society was much like that of North America. An example of daily life told to me was that men could find themselves sitting next to women in miniskirts in university lecture rooms in the 1970s.
The point is; try to get to know Afghans and Arabs. Learn about Islam. Things won't look so black and white then.
You're right, I don't have any idea about covert actions taken in countries like Israel, Guatemala, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Chile, Viet Nam or Afghanistan...
They must have glossed over those parts during the multiple, upper-level division seminars I took on U.S. Foreign policy while attending Berkeley... damn public education!
What do you want me to say as part of my relenting gesture? That the Bush family is part of a vast right-wing conspiracy? That CNN and all the other major news networks are acting complicitly as part of a government-controlled propaganda effort? That it was actually a U.S. missile that destroyed WTC 7—not a tower collapse? That despite their having to institute large employee layoffs, U.S. weapons contactor Boeing is profiting from this mess?
Call me naive, but I like to believe that the truth is a little more interesting...
I'll leave the crackpot theories and leftist demagoguery to you. Go fucking have a riot down at the Powell St. turnaround.
What I find really despicable is the sanctimonious self-righteousness of people like marc, robert, jon, ryan and others who come on this board and are so morally outraged by the WTC bombings yet never evince a bit of outrage at the far more massive and recurrent crimes, and murderous policies, of the US. In a sense 9/11 was a gift to these people. Finally they have a cause that allows them to get up on their high moral hobby horse and gives meaning to their stupid and pointless existence. They demonstrate no particular knowledge of US foreign policy accept the received wisdom spoon-fed to them by Dan Rather and the rest of the puppets on television. They are smugly certain that the US is not only justified in what it's doing, but also see it as morally elevating. The corporate media shills whom they rely upon for information make a mockery of an adversarial press as they laugh and guffaw with Rumsfeld and Meyer at their daily news-feed sessions, pose the most pathetically mundane and obsequious questions -- and then scamper off to report the "News That Fits"... the Bush Administrations' agenda. Critical minded twelve year olds could put these clowns to shame.
What allows our erst-while patriots to continue living in their deluded little bubble is that the victims of the US are almost never humanized; the media puppets may ('may' being the operative word, since usually the victims are simply erased) occasionally make mention of the victims, but the reportage is always encased in flagrant propaganda that effectively tells the viewer not to care too much. We are led to believe that whatever the US does to hurt the innocent is anomolous, or accidental, or due to good-intentions gone awry. The US is good by definition, it's crimes are inadvertant and never systemic, so just go shopping or watch some TV and get back to work.
I'm not just talking about this latest war. This is true of every war the US is involved in whether directly or via proxy. The fact that Robert can argue with a straight face that the US didn't intentionally harm civilians in Vietnam is evidence of the mind-numbing effectiveness of the propaganda system in the US. I don't know if he actually believes the garbage he spews -- but he clearly hopes impressionable little zealots will. Hey Robert! You're either stupid as a bag of rocks, or you're a lying sack of shit! The Vietnam war was a colonial slaughter in which the US killed between 2 and 3 Vietnamese, Napalmed the country, and dropped more bombs than during all of World War 2. In light of this, to say that the US forces weren't told or trained to kill civilians is meaningless. It might make Americans who want to preserve some delusional sense of their moral righteousness, but it's pure, unadalturated crap.
And it wasn't only Vietnam. The US/CIA brought Suharto to power in Indonesia in 1965 and aided and abetted the killing of a half million leftists and progressives. The US bombed the hell out of Cambodia, killing thousands. The US/CIA helped install the B'aathists in Iraq in the mid-1960's and handed over dossiers on radicals who were summarily offed (and then, of course, assisted Saddam throughout the 80's, before and after he gassed the Kurds). And there was the CIA engineered coup of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953 because he wanted to nationalize oil, ushering in the Shah. In 1954, the CIA organized the coup against the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatamala because he wanted to nationalize United Fruit, which brought in a succession of US-backed military regimes which slaughtered at least 150,000 in the following 35 years. And there was the 1973 CIA organized coup against the democratically elected government of Allende in Chile, ushering in the murderous Pinochet dictatorship. The list goes on and on: 75,000 killed in El Salvador, tens of thousands in Nicargua, US support for the brutal kleptocracys of Duvalier in Haiti, Marcos in the Philipines, and Mobuto in Zaire, and all the US backed and assisted military regimes in Latin America in the 70s and 80s, the US support of South African apartheid, support for the UNITA mercenaries in Angola, the CIA engineered assasination of Lumumba in the Congo.... And to this date, the sanctions and deliberate destruction of the Iraqi industrial infrastructure, including water, that has killed, at minimum, 500,000 in the past ten years, the US support of the totalitarian Saudi regime, support for the Israeli occupation.....
All these policies had and have as their over-arching goal the extension and preservation of US geopolitical power and the interests of the US capitalist class to exploit raw materials, labor, and markets globally. Talk about western civilization all you want, but it won't change this fundamental fact.
So all you self-righteous, toxic patriots: You're only fooling yourselves and people as brain-dead as yourselves.
OBL, fifteen years ago was a "freedom fighter" and was, at least indirectly, on the CIA payroll during the war in Afghanistan in the 80's. When the Taliban took power in 1996 after the Northern Alliance had held power for four years (and, incidentally, killed about 50,000 Afghans) the US saw as the Taliban as a force for for stability and invited Talib reps to the US to meet with US diplomats and Unocal reps in 1997. Oil and gas pipelines were in the works, connecting Uzbekistan to Pakistan via Afghanistan. It was subsequently called off because of instability, but there is no question that the Caspian gas and oil reserves and Central Asia's geostrategic location are important to understanding the present conflict. You can call it a conspiracy theory, but you'd only be playing the fool in the process.
The present slaughter has ushered into power a bunch of mercenaries who couldn't hold more than a tenth of the country without weeks of US bombs and were hated by vast numbers of Afghans due to the chaos and criminality they presided over between 92-96. (An aside: it's funny that the Bush administration is bombing into power a group that's cozy with that ex-KGB man Putin and whose two leading commanders are ex-KGB: Fahim and Dostum. Fahim is now the head of Defense in the new "government").
I'm wondering all you morally anointed american patriots: how many civilian dead is too many? A conservative estimate has it that US bombs alone have killed 3,700 Afghan civilians in the past two months, based on confirmed civilian deaths culled from the foreign and domestic press by an american university professor. But in these wars, most of the death isn't caused by direct hits by bombs as much as by the indirect impact of bombs and threats of bombs. Jonathon Steele of the London Guardian reports that 600,000 Afghan civilians have been forced to flee their homes due to US bombs. They are forced to migrate, subject to the cold with little or no food or medical attention. For the young and old in particular this is often a death sentence. Afghans are expiring in refugee camps across the country from hunger and disease. It isn't known how many but there is reason to believe that there have been many, and more are to come. When the Northern Alliance took Mazar-e-Sharif in early November the US press parroted the US government line that food aid -- the distribution of which had been seriously hampered by US bombs -- could be massively increased, implicitly vindicating US plans. Well, instead of increasing food shipments, which had already been seriously diminished, the fall of the Taliban has brought about an upsurge of chaos and criminality and food shipments dropped by half in the month after the Northern Alliance took over. But, as is typical, while the US media made much of the "fact" that food aid would be increased -- because it conformed to the US goverment line that the US is all-good and all-knowing -- it has been rather muffled in reporting on the real-world impact of the Northern Alliance takeover. Steele quotes John Fairhurst, OXFAM's program director, who says: "With the Taliban there was a certain amount of security in the areas controlled. I wouldn't say the Taliban was supportive, but a lot of aid got in -- there was acceptance. Now we have local commanders looking to take advantadge of the collapse. You also have bandits who feel they have more freedom to operate." Tom Pitt of Doctors Without Borders is quoted saying: "Before 9/11 we were reaching upwards of one million people. Now it's less than that."
You patriots can put your heads in the sand and pat yourselves all over, but the numbers of Afghans dying continues to mount.
The fact is, we have always had a cause. That cause is the best interest of the US and her citizens as a whole. In reading the history lesson you gave, it should be noted all the actions you referred to were taken during the Cold War. In case you missed it and have not been paying attention since several other countries in the world were and are involved in the same types of operations. However, I don't see you decrying those countries for their foreign policy.
As for your specific lines:
"Finally they have a cause that allows them to get upon their high moral hobby horse and gives maening to their stupid and pointless existence."
Well, our "stupid and pointless existence," as you so eloquently call it, is to keep your unpatriotic ass free. Yes, that's right, regardless of how much filth you spew about the US government, it's agencies and our military, we are dedicated and willing to sacrafice our lives so you have the freedom to do just that. So, keep in mind the next time you have something derogatory to say about us and our existence, the only reason you have the freedom to open your mouth is because of us. Like it or not, you need us and all that we stand for.
"They demonstrate no particular knowledge of US foreign policy accept the received wisdom spoon-fed to them by Dan Rather and the rest of the puppets on television."
I think you have that statement somewhat wrong. Based on all the garbage you have posted here, I would say you are the one who relies on propoganda second hand knowledge that you have acquired through reading and watching television. It is quite apparent in all that you have written that you have not been a part of initiating or promoting any form of foreign policy on a level other than websites like this or in one of your little leftist groups. I on the other hand have spent over six years in foriegn countries interacting with foriegn governments and populations. Therefore, I'll go with my first-hand knowledge of foriegn policy, thanks.
Also, you once again went back to civilian casualties in Afghanistan both as a direct and indirect result of combat operations. You referred to deaths in refugee camps from starvation, cold and illness. You need to take a closer look at the refugee problem and it's existence prior to US intervention. For a detailed look that goes back several years, try ReliefWeb. You will see the refugee problem was there long before the US bombing. It was a result of Soviet occupation, the Taliban and drought. If read ReliefWeb, which OXFAM post to also, you will see refugees from Iran are returning to Afghanistan in record numbers since the collapse of the Taliban regime. You will also find the borders with Uzbekistan have opened to include "Friendship" bridge. There is a concerted effort by numerous NGO's to get aid to both the IDP's within Afghanistan and the Refugees in neighboring countries. Yes, security issues make this difficult in some areas, but it should also be noted that the security situation is improving on an almost daily basis. This information is again available on the ReliefWeb, not to mention the UNHCR website.
I notice in all your belly aching you didn't mention our occupation of Japan or the number of civilians we killed when we dropped the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, or the number of German civilians killed in WW II. Could it be you left this out because the US rebuilt Japan and West Germany to be stronger economically than they were before. And the fact that US foriegn policy shaped the reunification of Germany. Oh, wait, if you mention these things you would have to admit the US was successful in a foriegn policy situation. We can't have that, can we?
The same results that were seen in Germany and Japan will be seen in Afghanistan for the sole purpose of promoting stability in a region that has been route with war and tribal dispute for a thousand years.
So, until you are on the tip of the spear helping to ensure Americans like yourself can enjoy the freedoms you so handily take advantage I could really care less what you think, based on what you have read in books, of our foreign policy.
Have a good day nessie and enjoy your freedoms! Yes, yet another aspect of the greatest nation in the world...the diversity of her citizens and those desiring to become citizens.
Take care.
I'm such a victim! I pay rent and have to take urine tests; I'm stuck in a dead end job and spend most of my savings maintaining my marijuana stash; I get stopped by the police because much of the time my appearance is that of a glazed-eyed vagrant...
The world owes me something and if not I don't receive it my status will never be that of a livestock!!!!
(That other poster was right—you really are being sodomized)
You really are livestock!
I sthere any way some of us could convince you to commit suicide?
nessie is a crazy ass p r o d e c e p t i o n snake in the weeds but suicide ?!?!
not fucking cool dude.
nessier` is harmless to my security and not worth the peripheral burden of force.
the enemy is terrorism. nessier is just paranoid. and wordy. piss ya off i know, but its only words.
to much of my family blood has served in the defense of free speach. dont be a klansman dude.
It's amusing to me how complacent defenders of US power have become. For someone who's so inclined to get up on your high moral hobby horse and shout how how free, democratic, and benevolent the US is, you don't have much to say in the face of a highly abbreviated list of the US' direct and indirect murderousness abroad accept that other countries aren't so peachy either. It is typical of red-white-and-blue religionists like yourself that while you spout off endlessly about the greatness and decency of the US, when confronted with evidence that puts such claims to question, you change the subject.
As to your claim that my examples are all from the Cold War, I would suggest you read up on US conduct in the Phillipines at the turn of the century. Thousands and thousands killed by your lovely US armed forces, and, lo an behold, you can't blame that on the USSR! Or can you? The Cold War has been over now for a decade, and the US continues to assist brutal regimes that do its bidding and continues to bomb countries with almost complete impunity. The sanctions, and endless bombings of Iraq (which included the deliberate destruction of its water supply) in the name of containing the US' ex-ally, Saddam Hussein, has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in the past decade. Now, more than ever, US policy is administered through (ostensibly) multilateral institutions like the IMF and the World Bank which demand the imposition of austerity (cut-backs in public health, education, and the like), privatizations, liberalization of capital markets -- etc -- in the interests of multinational corporations and banks. The recent rebellion in Argentina is one of many counter-responses to these (largely) US formulated policies. I'm sure someone of your intellectual and moral fiber was waxing poetic about Argentina five years ago as vindication of markets blah blah blah. Now with official unemployment at 20%, wages declining massively, huge cut-backs in social services, freezes on the banks, and the IMF salivating for pay-back, the Argentines have risen. What have you to say about that Robert?
As to your claim (made cynically to deflect attention from an arguement you're unable to refute) that I don't criticize other governments and only want to pick on ol 'infamy, well, that is not the case. I don't see the US as the sole malevolent force in the world -- just the most powerful. I travelled to the Soviet Bloc countries before the wall came down and saw what they were about. Those societies were stultifying, grey, unfree -- and not socialist. Some East Berliners that I hung out with (who, I might add, paid 5% of their income on rent and said that that Honecker sucked but life was easy) described the regime as state-capitalist, and I think that is the best description of those regimes generally. The state was the monopoly capitalist and benefits were accrued not through money profits but instead based on ones position within the "Communist" party via relatively high wages, perks, and graft..... In 1998, ten years later, I returned to the ex-Soviet Bloc and got to see the differences. There are more fomal freedoms, there is no doubt. But formal freedoms and actual freedoms are two very different things. What I found through talking to people and observing the situation is that conditions -- in many respects -- have worsened for most people in the transitiion from state capitalism to market capitalism. Over and over, I heard people complain that they are forced to work all the time and have little to show for it. Tensions within the society have increased; there is more violence and alienation; shit is way more tacky and crass; there's homelessness; health care and social amenities have been cutback or decimated.... I believe that in the next decade we'll be seeing explicitly anti-capitalist movements strengthen in the former Soviet Bloc as more and more people see how little the market capitalism has to offer.
As to Japan and Germany: Gosh you reactionaries would be nowhere if you didn't have WW2 and its aftermath around to confect into America's eternal justification. First off, the US' ambitions in WW2 were imperialist, it's only that it's enemies were even worse. But Robert: WW2 ENDED ALMOST SIXTY YEARS AGO! Can't you come up with something in the second half of the 20th century that might redeem the US? As far as US policy vis a vis Japan and Germany after the war, I would say that US planners, having drawn lessons from post WW1, thought better than to rub the losers' faces in shit for next several decades. Enlightened self-interest -- which is better than UNenlightened self-interest I'll grant -- was the basis of US policy regarding Japan and Germany after the long slaughter.
As to freedom in the US: YAWN. It was recently reported that in the 90's, the average US work-week rose more than a full five days. Of the industrialized countries, only the Czecks and the South Koreans work more than Americans. You can talk all you want Robert about freedom, but what does it mean in real terms if you're working between 40 and 60 hours a week, and, like millions and millions in this country, never get ahead? When you're two or three pay-checks away from homelessness? As someone who has done organizing on the job -- and been involved in a highly successful wildcat strike -- I can't tell you how many times I've heard workers say that they don't have the freedom to take a few days off for a job action. Think of that. That's some pretty amemic freedom in my book.
The fact is that real wages started falling in the US in 1973 and continued to do so up until 1995. Between 95-00 the speculative boom bumped wages up a little, but most of the proceeds went to the top 20% of the workforce. Remember, housing -- the biggest expense for most working class and poor people -- is no longer counted when calculating inflation, meaning that "real wages" are skewed. And for most non-wealthy people, the chief impact of the boom was sky-rocketing housing costs. Ridiculously inflated housing is the chief over-hang of the boom, as lay-offs and a slack labor market give the capitalists increased leverage. We're already seeing the effect of this in employers asking their plebes to work harder, pay more for health premiums etc.
And thanks to Clinton, this recession is occuring in an environment in which the safety-net is tattered. Remember, the safety-net was patched together to avert rebellion Robert.
Which brings us to freedom to organize and dissent. It's not surpising that an (American) apparachik like you would talk with certainty of freedom in the United States of Mediocrity. As such, you are probably fairly well compenated, so you can glibly elide the material pre-conditions of freedom. As an inveterate conformist, you have no desire to oppose the present set-up, so you never test the alleged freedom that the US affords. So you can live in your smug little bubble espousing text-book american chatter about how free we are here in the US. But, Robert, why don't you attend a political demonstration in downtown Oakland. Make it an anti police brutality demo or one that challenges power directly. Better yet, make sure it's a demo in which a good percentage of the attendees are black and brown. Try talking about freedom as you're corraled through the streets by the cops, jabbed in the stomach with a billy club, and arrested on trumped up charges. These things happen routinely in freedom loving US. Robert -- participate in a strike and see who's side the cops are on. In my years as a peaceful radical, I've been beaten down hard several times by the cops and I've been picked up on the street and arrested BEFORE a demo on made-up shit. I've been told by Oakland cops that if there wasn't a video camera on the scene they'd would have killed me. I've seen people mercilessly beaten. And the history of the US is one in which dissidents and opponents of the established order have been threatened, jailed, spied-upon, and, when deemed necessary, killed. Check it out. You have the freedom to do so.
Yes, Robert, there is lot's of freedom in America -- to conform. Why don't you take off your rose-tinted glasses and see this country for what it is: A store-front for a corporate mob.
(and I always thought wisdom was achieved with age)
According to Webster an apparatchick is "a member of a Communist apparat." An apparat is "an underground political movement."
I am far from being an apparatchick. There is nothing underground about my political views, which by the way are far from communist in nature.
You mentioned in your post that I should attend a demonstration of dessent in Oakland, or better yet a demonstration predominantly of people of color. Well, I don't see people in color, we all bleed red. I have had my ass saved by a black man and I have performed CPR and saved the lives of blacks and asians. Skin color means nothing to me, people are people.
I will admit there are people in law enforcement and government at the local and national level that overstep their bounds towards people of a different race. Note, I didn't say whites toward black, asians, hispanics, etc., just as I didn't say black toward white or asian toward black or hispanic toward asian. I intentionally didn't make that statement specific because regardless of race, some people are prejudice. Yes, these people should be held accountable for their actions. At the same time though, I don't agree that you can stereotype all law enforcement officials into one group or all government employees into one group. To say they are all prejudice or against equality and human rights is ludicrous.
As for your belief there will be a revolt in the Eastern Bloc nations of the Former Soviet Union to return to "government capitalism," I highly doubt it. Yes, there will be a "Communist Party" and they will hold some seats in the respective governments, but that's about as far as it will go. The bottom line is, there's no such thing as true communism. It looks great on paper, but by human nature it cannot happen. A nation cannot be built with market capitalism in a decade, it will take years for those nations to develop and prosper to their full potential.
As I digress, back to the demonstrations, I guess you feel the "demonstrations" (riots) after the Rodney King incident were justified. I say the situations was an excuse for lawless citizens to loot, ransack and destroy the livelyhood of their neighbors under the guise of demonstrating for human rights. What about the human rights of those people the "demonstrators" beat and stole from? Or maybe you will go to Seattle and say those people were justified in their "demonstrations" (riots) against the World Trade Organization? Again, it was an excuse for lawless citizens to loot, ransack, destroy and violate the human rights of their neighbors. And just so I don't stay in the U.S. as I address this issue of "demonstrations" (riots), I invite you to join me on a verbal trip to Genoa, Italy for the Big 8 Summit. Those were not peaceful demonstrations to get a point accross either. The Caribinari (sp), which are the Italian Military Police were force to contend with rioting demonstrator who used their demonstration as an excuse to destroy public and private property under the guise of their right to freedom of speech.
I know, from your point of view, the government provoked the actions of these "peaceful" demonstrators by placing extra police (peace) officers on the streets. I disagree!
I'm all for freedom of speech and the right of EVERY individual to voice their opinion. However, once you decide to turn your demonstration to violence which seems to be the trend, it is expected that police (peace) officers take appropriate action to restore order. In the event of physical resistance (drug induced or otherwise), due force is acceptable.
Take care Aaron.
And before you go off on a tangent about the Civil Rights struggle of the 60's, I will agree there were transgressions in the area of Civil Rights in regards to minorities. I will follow that up with the fact huge strides have been made in the area of Civil Rights for minorities and they are continually improving. At the same time I will say I do not agree with Afirmative Action in it's broadest form because it lend to lower standards to meet a quota. Nothing should be based on race, religion or ethnic background. As I said in my last post, color blind in regards to people. Everything should be strictly based on performance.
You perform, you excel.....no performance, you stagnate. You and Aaron are familiar with being stagnate, right.
Not only are you an idiot, you're a spineless idiot since you posted as "anonymous."
IT IS THE SOLDIER, NOT THE REPORTER, WHO HAS GIVEN US FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.
IT IS THE SOLDIER, NOT THE POET, WHO HAS GIVEN US FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
IT IS THE SOLDIER, NOT THE CAMPUS ORGANIZER, WHO HAS GIVEN US FREEDOM TO DEMONSTRATE.
IT IS THE SOLDIER, NOT THE LAWYER, WHO HAS GIVEN US THE RIGHT TO A FAIR TRIAL.
IT IS THE SOLDIER WHO SALUTES THE FLAG, SERVES UNDER THE FLAG, AND WHOSE COFFIN IS DRAPED BY THE FLAG WHO ALLOWS THE PROTESTER TO BURN THE FLAG.
Charles M. Province
San Diego, CA
your little "soldier is the shit" post might fly on the John Birch web-site, but for those who have been beaten and terrorized by your vaunted soldier (in the form of the police) it lands with a thud. you converted nobody with that pathetic attempt at martial patriotism.
your complacency in the face of america's decline is actually sort of funny. it means that you -- and people like you -- will be taken completely by surprise when the next rebellion occurs. you all will have to polish off your "well, yes, there are real problems in this country" speech last used by daddy Bush post 92. and i'm telling you, Robert, for millions in this country shit has only gotten worse since 92, and all your paeans to american freedom are just salt in the wound.
Think about it. It's not that wages are declining as you claim, but rather the cost of goods is increasing at a dramatic rate. Why? Because people like yourself and other unionized laborers keep demanding higher wages. This in turn forces industry to raise prices for consumers. Cause and effect. You sit there with your self pity act and complain the government and industry is keeping you down when in fact it is the actions of people like you that create a multitude of the problems. No, I'm not totally against unions, when unionized labor started the logic behind it was good. Now, the union leaders are being paid rediculous salaries and for what? To get you a higher hourly wage so they can charge higher union dues and be paid more themselves? You cannot convince me union leaders call for higher wages to benefit the worker, no it's to benefit the union leadership. Speaking of that, you mentioned the fact that you "organized on the job -- and been involved in a highly successful wildcat strike." You mention workers telling you they "don't have the freedom to take time off for a job action." Is it they cannot take time off for the job action or that they wouldn't be paid for the time they took off for the job action? There is a big difference there, it boils down to freedom of choice...work and get paid or go to the job action with little Aaron cause problems and don't get paid. I say work and get paid rather than line the pockets of the union leadership.
In any any market society, there will be inflation, you can't get around it. Not to mention the fact that the higher the demand the higher the consumer cost. Generally, the cost will align itself at a reasonable level as supply and demand level out.
As for Argentina, I refuse to waste much time there. To claim the collapse of the Argentine economy is the fault of the US policy is rediculous. What does Argentina export? What is the demand on the world market? You are just like an economics professor I once had that thought 2% of the GNP going to develop third world nations wasn't enough. You like him think the entire military budget should be put to developing third world countries and the military scrapped all together. Lets live in total anarchy.
As for Iraq. You blame "hundreds of thousands" of deaths on the US. Can you define "endless bombing?" Returning fire when fired upon is not endless bombing. Sanctions, personally I think they are pointless and are not serving the purpose they are intended for. However, I don't think the sanctions are the reason for Iraqi citizens dying. I tend to lean toward the fact the government of Iraq would rather have it's citizens starve to death and go without medical treatment than follow the UN endorsed Oil for food and medical equipment program. The sanctions are not designed to prevent the purchase of food and medicine, they are designed to prevent the purchase of material for development of WMD.
"for milliions in this country shit has only gotten worse since 92, and all your paeans"
I find it quite interesting that you reference things getting worse since 92. If I recall correctly, Clinton, not Bush was in the White House from 92 through 2000. I would think you would have been elated during the Clinton era. Afterall, he was a draft dodger and didn't believe in war when it was his turn to fight. Although, he never batted an eye when it came to sending a later generation into harms way. You strike me as the same kind of person as Clinton.
what he is trying to say is that slamming planes, or bombs or gas or germs into large masses of civilians is not right.
I wish you would understand that and stop both making apoligies for people who do the above and then denying for some strange reason that you are apoligies.
All these 'yes buts' from you are making me wonder if the holicost posting really is from a fake nessie.
accidental killing civilians during the course of a war is not murder
and, since you bring up war crimes, accidentally killing civilians IS NOT A WAR CRIME BY DEFINITION.
millionsonstrike: the fact that people strike is not an indictment against capitalism, to say so is utterly dishonest. people strike for higher wages and if need be to correct market failures with respect to wages. there is nothing anti-capitalistic about that you twit.
as for things being WORSE off since 1992, jesus get real. dig up any statistical abstract of the US or the world and you'll see just how wrong you are.
what is essentially luxury housing with respect to an awesome location is not a human necessity.
how about food, which we can all agree is a necessity. the avg american spent 33% of his income on food in the early 60's, he now spends roughly 10-12%.
you can thank monsanto and the corportization of agriculture for that
and when i say what a war crime is, i'm talking about the geneva conventions. look it up, it is there in plain black and white, the untintentional killing of civilians is, although regrettable, still legal.
You spew garbage about warriors kill warriors and if a civilian is killed then the warrior is a coward. Look back through history Nessie, you claim to know so much about it, and tell me just one war where no "civilian" casualties were taken. You can't do it. Since the beginning of time there has been collateral damage in combat.
That bullshit you posted trying to convince people I was implying the attacks on the WTC were justifiable was absolutely ludicrous. I'm sure every person that reads this site has noted that I am Pro U.S. and favor the actions of the U.S. in response to the attacks. At no time have I said or implied the attacks on the U.S. and the deaths of civilians that came with them were acceptable as collateral damage from war. YOU'VE LOST YOUR FUCKING MIND TO EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING.
I have center my post primarily around collateral damage in combat, American freedoms and the American way of life. Let me break it down for you so maybe you can understand it:
Collateral damage in combat - Although it is sad civilians are killed during combat operations between nations, as long as they are limited as much as possible they are acceptable and have been throughout the history of warfare. This does not mean genocide is acceptable because it is not. It simply means when the enemy is using civilians as "human shields" (Iraq, Vietnam, Germany, Korea and Japan to name a few) the casualties are acceptable to achieve the objective.
American Freedoms - Whether you are willing to admit it or not American enjoy more freedoms than any other nation in the world today. Those freedoms are the result of hard fought battles both on the battlefield with weapons and battles through domestic demonstrations. The warriors of the U.S. military have participated in both.
The American way of life - Americans, per capita, enjoy a higher standard of living than the peoples of any other nation on earth. Yes, that is a fact. That doesn't mean no one goes without. However, I suggest most of those going without are third and fourth generation welfare recipients that have no desire to work and think everything should be given to them and they shouldn't have to give anything in return. Sorry, that's not the way things work. IF YOU WORK, YOU GET PAID. No, everyone that works doesn't get paid the same. Supply and demand are the words of the day. Personally, I love the American way of life and wouldn't trade it for anything.
For someone so concerned they are being watched and listened to you sure spend alot of time posting your far left garbage. Keep looking over your shoulder Nessie, the G-men are coming for you you. Get real you spineless twit.
You sound so ignorant asking for factual evidence or logical argument...
To late, your self contradictions are already noted. To add to it, lets go back in this article aways. I won't direct quote you, but you stated all law enforcement agency and the standing military should be disestablished and a citizen militia formed. However, I noted in another posted article concerning Officer 149, you said all cops aren't bad but every organization or group has it's "bad apples." So please clarify your stance on law enforcement agencies for the rest of the anarchist out there. Should they be disbanded altogether, or just the bad apples weeded out?
And finally, an excerpt from your last post where you quoted me and responded.
>an anarchist. So what you are telling me and everyone reading this site is that you want "political disorder and confusion without any cohering principles as a common purpose or standard."
(etc.)
That’s what our enemies say anarchism is. Here’s some links to our version:
So now you are telling us one of your enemies is Webster's Collegiate Dictionary? You must be since that is where I quoted the definition from.
You are correct. There is no comparison. Small groups of poorly armed fanatics have no similar claim to moral standing as the most powerful state in the world, one obsessed with the so-called rule of law. Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden are war crimes against civilian populations with no other purpose than terror through mass slaughter. There was no military objective save terror.
More babies died in those three attacks than all the WTC casualties combined.
But more to the point is the recent sanctions against Iraq. Sanctions which are rejected by most of the world and kept in place by US veto in the UN security council. Sanctions, which according to UNESCO, have killed over 500,000. The UN, not Sadam Hussein, says these sanctions are responsible for grave crimes against humanity.
I am a memeber of humanity first, a North American second. I will apologize for no murder. US Patriot shows himself to be the scoundrel that he is.
When Americans die, it's a crime. When Americans murder, it's "justice." You should be ashamed of yourself. Or better, leave the US and learn how the rest of the world views your ugly and murderous concept of patriotism. You have been bought and sold.
Since Burningman and Nessie are doing quite a job on your stale-ass apologetics for all-American mass murder, I'll just respond to some of your screed directed toward my last couple posts.
I have to say, Robert, that you should be given an award for inventiveness for your patently ridiculous arguement that the fall in real wages in the US since 1973 is due to the unions. This is ridiculous on its face because the decline in real wages has closely correlated with the decline in unionization in America, and is, in fact, inextricably connected to it. This isn't to say that the decline in union wholly explains the decline in real wages. It's more accurate to say that capital's offensive in the past quarter century -- flexible accumulation characterized by flight out of the US away, in many cases, from heavily unionized sectors; intensified repression of union efforts; and massive austerity in the form of cut-backs in social programs have altogether caused a decline in real wages and a weakening of the unions. And weakened unions are, obviously, less able to fight-back.
What's becoming more and more clear to anti-capitalists, though, is that the official unions are close to anachronistic, shackled as they are by the laws of the capitalist state -- the slow-as-molasses recognition process, the Taft-Hartley restrictions on secondary actions, the contract-centered approach etc.
The strike that I participated in, and helped to organize, was a wildcat action directed against a firm that had an ineffectual union drive going on at the time. It was organized outside of the union. The union called on the strikers to go back to work after the first day of the strike, but it continued for 5 full days. The Vice President of the corporation had to be flown in to meet with the strikers and plead for us to go back to work. We didn't until we got assurances that conditions would improve big-time. In the following month and a half after the strike ended we hit them with a couple more actions and ultimately got big concessions.
In part, Robert, I agree with you in your assessment of the union bosses. I have no love for 'em. I think its accurate, in large measure, to say -- when boiled down to their essence -- that unions are businesses: Labor merchandising outfits. But you marshall your criticism of the unions as part of an overall "let capital do whatever the fuck it wants because it knows best" politics, I argue that the unions, as they are now constituted, are no real threat to capital. I want to see a force emerge that will be a big-time threat to capital.
As far as capital raising the price of the commoditiy it sells due to demands from workers, all I'll say is that capital is always looking to raise prices. The demands of its workers are an independent variable.
As to US bombings of Iraq: I don't have the exact reference available, but it was reported in early 2001 that the US had, in the previous two years, run thousands (can't remember the exact number) of sorties over Iraq and killed approximately 300 civilians in that time. Of course, the main destruction the US has wrought on the Iraqi population -- in the name of destabilizing its ex-ally Hussein -- has been through sanctions and the deliberate destruction of the countries industrial infrastructure. Go Team?
As far as Clinton being my kind of guy: You've been listening to too much fright-wing radio evidently. By any reasonable measure, Clinton was a center-rightist (perhaps right-wing liberal is a good description). I hated the bastard. He's more up your alley I'd think Robert: NAFTA, WTO, death penalty, massive cut-backs in the social wage, sanctions on Iraq, bombings of poor countries, give-aways to multinational corporations etc etc.
To Jon: Fuck your statistical abstract. I said for millions conditions have gotten worse since the lid blew off in 1992, and if you wanna deny this fact it only shows (once again) how far your head is up your ass. The speculative boom of the 90's was good for the capitalist class, stock-holders, and -- relatively speaking -- a fraction of the working class. For millions and millions the boom meant higher housing costs (which aren't tallied when Tom Brokaw reads the inflation rate) and not much more. Coupled with the evisceration of the social saftey-net, for the poorest folks in the US shit got quite a bit worse in the 90's.
And now it's 2002 and y'all banal apologists of the present set-up might want to start getting a bit worried. The patriotic idiocy won't last forever, and when it ends, there'll be alot of pent up tension.
My prediction: The Summer of 2002 will be hot.
and Nessie: yea I took a look at the link you pointed out to me related to the cops and threats. I'm not sure if I have anything new to say on the matter. I'm curious though: why did you want me to check it out?
I think Robert is getting worn out. Wanna call it a TKO or continue for the KO?
>"I think Robert is getting worn out. Wanna call it a TKO or continue for the KO?"
>"It's not too late to jump-ship, pal."
You profess a TKO, however you have no rebut for the current dilema of unionized labor other than "that was quite a retort."
No reason for me to jump ship, I provide validity to my arguments, unlike you and Nessie. You two whine about the oppressive governments of capitalism, yet when challenged to find a better place to live you can't. Nessie says to look at Switzerland and how great it is, yet he's still here in the good old U.S.A.
If the two of you want to make a difference to the world do like so many of the rest of us are doing. Instead of running your mouth about oppression and the capatilistic society, travel your lazy ass to other parts of the world to help with the hunger issues and disease. Improve the quality of water to impoverished nations to help control cholera. Take part in Role Back Malaria through WHO. Do your part in a humanitarian aid mission to Central Africa or the Philippines. You two talk the talk but you don't walk the walk. You spend all your time crying about civilian casualties in war, but you do nothing to decrease the number of casualties around the world from starvation and disease. Where is your contribution other than spewing your anarchist propoganda in this sight or going to a demonstration so you can break a window or two?
That's what I thought, you don't make any. When's the last time you saved a life? Have you ever? Let alone the life of a foreigner that may have a disease there's no cure for.
So you see, all your idealogical banter about anarchy means nothing to me.
For my own self, while no anarchist, I've spent time in Mexico acting as a peace witness in the autonomous communities of Chiapas. I went into several townships ranging in size from a hundred or so people to several thousand. They had this problem that NAFTA undermines their traditional form of land ownership, the ejido, which was won by the campesinos in the aftermath of the Mexican Revolution. Because land was to be broken up and cheap imports allowed in against the will of the people, they rose up in popular revolt.
But they didn't try to keep waging war, just to hold onto their own. So the government, in collusion with the US military began shipping tons of M-16 rifles and other materials down to paramilitaries which formed throughout the countryside. Every general in Chiapas is now a graduate of the infamous School of the Americas.
So I went down to sit in th middle of these villages so that if paramilitaries came they would either have a North American witness or have to kill me to kill the local people. I also helped with some work around the villages, but learned pretty quickly that I mainly got in their way.
They don't want your capitalism and they will fight to preserve democracy. In fact, Mexico's recent election victory by the PAN in inconceivable without their revolt.
Your argument vis a vis the unions is not only silly but internally inconsistent. You claim, on the one hand, that the unions have caused real wages to decline because they have driven up the cost of goods in the marketplace by ratcheting wage gains against the bosses. In effect, you were arguing that the unions drove down real wages by driving up wages. So you started with a strange claim that I think I refuted effectively and to which you didn't respond. But, once having claimed that wage gains have driven down real wages, you then claim that the union bosses don't have the best interests of the rank-and-file at heart. I personally think the union bosses are irrelevant, creatures of an anachronistic strategy and utterly loyal to capitalism's laws. Some union bosses are corrupt, certainly, but what's even more pervasively true is that they are ineffectual and irrelevant, accept as a hindrance to real struggle against the employers. That said, I'm not sure if you're peaved at the union bosses because you think they're too effective at making wage gains (and thus, driving down real wages according to your formulation) or because you think they aren't effective enough. Which one is it?
What's funny is that the only issue thus far that I sense that we may agree upon is our antipathy for the union heads. Perhaps for different reasons, perhaps not. I've made my views on the matter pretty brief but pretty clear. I'm inclined to think you raised the issue purely as a diversionary tactic, but if you sincerely want to continue dialogue on the matter, I'm willing.
Nessie: my attitude about the cops is to give them as little thought as possible. Part of the states strategy is to create paranoia and suspicion. I'm all for being smart, you know what i'm saying?
keep up with the good work.
People who think killing innocent Afghans to avenge something that was done by Saudis and Egyptians, is justified, are deluded.
While all of YOU have been leading a normal life, Afghans had to fight the "coldwar" between the World's big leftist(Russia) and rightists(ref.domino theory).
U HAVE NO IDEA how it is to see your country thorne apart; your people, landscape, peaceful life get destroyed and to live under a communist regime and become a refugee(the unwanted& vulnerable people)?
SURE they(Afghans) had their own reasons to fight the Russian invasion (i.e. since Afghans have never been slaves and fought English occupation too). BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY FOUGHT THE WAR FOR all OF U WHO FEARED the SPREAD of DICTATORSHIP(communism) AFTER THE WWII- and THE LOSS of FREEDOM TO PRACTICE Whatever you'r FATE IS(in danger by the atheist-Communists).
THEY FOUGHT THE WAR WITH THEIR BLOOD AND THEIR HOMES (Afghanistan was not like what u see on tv before the Russians invaded it). IN THIS FIGHT AFGHANS(specificly. mujaheddines) REPLACED AMERICAN SOLDIERS , WHO WERE UNFORTUNATELY DEFEATED IN Vietnam. SURE IT WAS WITH YOUR MONEY(MOSTLY IN THE FORM OF WEAPONS) With Which THEY FOUGHT. BUT MONEY CAN NEVER REPLACE, SUCH A MASSIVE LOSS OF HUMAN LIFE.(More than 2,5 million Afghans from a population of 12 million died in the war against Russia and more 6 million left their sweet homeland and became refugees in Pakistan and Iran; not to mention in the other parts of the world). And it was after the defeat of Russians by Afghans, when the people in Eastern Europe found the gut to free themselves too.
But once the cold war was won, Afghanistan (THE WORLD'S BATTEL-FIELD with its casualties, its internationally mine sown grounds) was forgotten. A canadian group tried to unmine it, but gave up finding it costly and impossible. Afghanistan as a nation had become a disintegreated piece, since no one trusted each other(communists made neighbours spy on each other-> distrust among people). Not to forget multi-entnicity of Afghanistan(a base for disintegration in any country). And not to forget the beaten communists in Afghanistan who went and rapped, plunderd etc, diguissed as mujahiddin, to make it difficult for true Afghans to rule their rightful country for themselves(not for Russians/ foreigners). And not to mention the fake mujahid-groups(secretly set and financed by Russia, to make other mujahid-groups think they were covering parts of the battle field, while they were actually working for the enemy).
But we still believed, that we had friends in this world. That is more than enough for a true Afghan. One of the reasons why Bin Laden(a guest& some one who fought with Afghans against Russians) was not given up. For a true Afghan( non-communist and moslim) is a guest close to God (as Jesus admired hospitibility of some people, when he visited them as a poor man). ONE AFGAN STORY GOES AS FOLLOWS: an king was hunting a dear and close to a valley he saw his dear going into a tent. The tent belonged to a poor Afghan man. He asked him to give the dear to him, saying he was hunting him. The poor man, knowing he could be killed for his disobedience, told the King that: THE DEAR HAS SOUGHT REFUGE In HIS PLACE. AND AS AN AFGHAN HE HAS TO PROTECT HIM. NO MATTER WHAT.
The World did'nt bother to consider these culturally rooted Afghan-believes(Morals) and the HUGE FAVORE of Afghan's(or: mujahid's)for them. Not to mention their big loss of life -and loss of their normal life. Instead of bringing to the international court, the criminal Russian Army was asked for tips on bombing Afghanistan. JUSTICE? NOT FOR AFGHANS WHO FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES ARE THE VICTIM OF INTERNATYIONAL RACE FOR MORE POWER.
BOMS ARE BLIND, they can kill regardless (even U're smart bombs went stray, if reported). The Nomads, who move and live scatterd throughout Afghanistan could have been targetted, taken as Al Queda/Taliban. This is on the short term . On the (middel)long- term they can evoke the seismic- activities(earth -quakes); in an earth-quake sensitive region as Afghanistan; and cause furher deaths in that poor country. One earth-quake has happend just recently, killing 100 Afghans.
I CAN only tell U THAT HUMANITY HAS FAILED. HUMAN LIFE IS HUMAN LIFE: American or Afghan. BUT U HAVE, WITH YOUR SUPPORT FOR BOMBARDEMENT OF AFGHANISTAN (instead of other/ diplomatic means of solving the proplem) AND WITH YOUR BLINDNESS FOR THE RUSSIAN-CRIMES IN AFGHANISATN, GRADED THE HUMAN LIFE. THE LOSS OF RUSSIAN/ AMERICAN/ EUROPEAN HUMAN LIFE IS A GREATER DISASTER TO U THAN THAT OF AN AFGHAN LIFE. Why?
While if u think deeply, true Afghans are more human than any other. THEY HAVE HIGH MORALS the SIZE OF THEIR MOUNTAINS; THEY ARE BRAVE AND FIGHT FACE TO FACE(not from above&behind); THEY ARE DOWN TO EARTH WHEN IT COMES TO GOD: THEY ARE FREE SPIRITED AND REFUSE TO BE RULED BY FORIEGNERS: THEY ARE HOSPITABLE EVEN IF EXTREMELY POOR.
DON'T TELL ME THAT THERE WAS NO SOLUTION. U HAVE THEN MISSED THE 4 to 5 OFFERS Made BY TALIBAN (including handing over of Bin Landen to an international court). Further more, this Bloody-Strategy Didn't GIVE Bin Laden to You. DId it? Don't think Oppression is NOT the ANSWER. U might be able to fight the surface but the roots become stronger. AND THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE WORLD's SAKE. A plastic bag rips apart(tears) if u stuff it more and with force! U can't expect other to do otherwise if u step on them, while there are other paths to take.
EVERY LOSS OF LIFE IS A HUMAN DISASTER, is said in Islam. That goes for people killed in& around the WTC in NY. It goes for that Afghan Girl injured during the bombing of Afghanistan, it goes for all Afghans killed in the war started by Russia. It goes for Taliban-prisoners who were bombed behind the closed doors in the Northern City of Mazar-e-Sharief( under the instruction of the repowerd ex-communist generaal Dostum; a criminal who runs over its oppenents with a tank).
Finally I presnt to u one of the symbols of the Afghan suffering, caused by the Russian and recently by our assumed 'friend' USA). THE SyMBOL IS The Afghan Girl, with Green Eyes' fotograffed by Jim Mc Curry in 1985. She was then a refugee in Pakistan, who had lost her parents, when Russians bomborded their villiage(something which was done frequently/ for fun by the Russians and is admitted by them). Just like many Taliban-members lost their parents and villiages and fleed to Pakistan to live and got trained there by the Pakistani Intelligence, supported by Americans, to get ready for possible retalition against Russians. She and her brother with their grand mother fleed, while they were being bombed. Now, 17 years later, she is 30 and has returned to afghanisan. But has to fle again because of bombardement and renewed instability. Talibamn, she said brought peace and stabilitity to her peopel. Which is now lost. THINK ABOUT THE JUSTIFICATION OF U're ACTION. FIRST AS A HUNMAN BEING.
See: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/071483839X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
You are so right about the dirty arab leadership and how they have exploited their people.
I am so glad I am a Christian in the USA.!!!!! Thank you LORD!!!!
It must be hell to be a raghead......even being a Jew must be rough.......well.....Thankfully we have WAR to sort out all this BS.
Its funny how WAR gets a bad name.....I got the feeling that every war victim would upon reflection be more than happy to further the cause of FREEDOM.
FREEDOM from raghead views.
This is just the kind of mentality that lies at the bases of all the wars and problems. U people make the wish of devil come true, that is causing DIFFERENCES instead of UNITY.
If we think of each other as human-beings first, then we might be able to treat each other equally and not apply double standards.
It was this (racial, religious and economic)differentiation and categorization (applied vigorously after the the industrial Revolution ) that formed the bases of the first and second world war. I don't have to remind u about the consequences of that. Do I?
And it is this unequal-treatment that is the bases of the wars we see today. Poor those who had to be the victim of that?
I personally had no knowledg of for example racial differences until I had to leave my beautiful country( i.e. Afghanistan).
Such differentiation which is the root of evil is strongest held in the industrialised countries and historically in Europe(incl. Russia) and America. Please fix this HANDICAP!
'CAUSE WE ARE FIRST OF ALL HUMAN-BEINGS, REGARDLESS OF OUR FAITH RACE, BELIEVES etccccc. That is what GOD wants from us and that was the reason why Islam was needed. But unfortunately didn't get accepted, 'cause some thought they would lose power if they accepted it. WE NEED UNITY.
Trains, planes, cars, rockets, telescopes, tires, telephones, radios, television, electricity, atomic energy, computers, and fax machines. All miracles made possible by the minds and spirits of men with names like Ampere, Bell, Caselli, Edison, Ohm, Faraday, Einstein, Cohen, Teller, Shockley, Hertz, Marconi, Morse, Popov. Ford, Volta, Michelin, Dunlop, Watt, Diesel, Galileo, and other "dead white males."
All reports indicate that we have a booming economy right now, but few understand why this is so. I hate to disappoint my friends on the radical left, but it has nothing to do with Bonnie and Clyde Clinton or the Democratic Party, or with any other party for that matter. What I’m about to say is tantamount to blasphemy in this politically correct day and age; yet truth is truth. How long are we going to pretend that origins play no role in our world, the origins of the inventions, science, technology, and economics of the world in which we live?
Our present economic boom is due to the revolution in electronics and computer technology. But saying this is not enough, for these things didn’t just spring into existence by themselves. They have traceable origins. And all of our "booms," throughout history, have the same origins as this one. It’s no mystery. Just look at the list of names in your history books, and their national origins.
The great majority of "booms" past and present have been brought about by the genius and inventiveness of that most "despicable" of genders, the dreaded white male, or, to be exact, by specific, individual white males. This is not to discredit the many contributions coming from non-whites, but fact is fact. Our most important and consequential inventions have come almost exclusively from white males.
Curse me, or all white males, if you wish, that changes nothing. But if you call me a liar, you’ll have to come up with the proof that I’m wrong. Remember, I didn’t say there were no important contributions by non-whites; I said the overwhelming majority. Of course, I know about such things as the Chinese and gunpowder, but they didn’t take it much beyond firecrackers and pyrotechnics. And I know about the pyramids and masonry of South America and the zero of the Arabs.
Would we have atomic physics and electricity if it hadn’t been for the ancient Greek philosophers who, for example, had the idea that all matter consists of tiny atoms? Aristotle (5th century, B.C., 25th century pre P.C.) used electric charges to treat gout! Archimedes perceived the center of gravity of solids, cylinders, and spheres. From the basic discoveries of Greek civilization it went to the Romans and after the fall of Rome, it passed to later Europeans who expanded on this scientific knowledge. In modern times these ideas were developed by such Europeans as Volta, Ampere, Watts, Bell, Edison, and Einstein, who provided the basis for most of the technical wonders of today. All of them dreaded white males.
Maybe you got your enlightenment from one of the Ivy-League institutions of dis-education. Maybe they taught you that it’s all the result of white racism and oppression. That every time a potential Einstein, Edison, or Ford popped up in the Third World, a White hit-squad would swoop down and eliminate him before he had a chance to prove himself. Or maybe their schools refused to teach him in the Ebonics of his day. Or maybe they didn’t have proper daycare facilities. Or maybe our would-be innovator came from a "dysfunctional family."
But the facts tell us that many of the great men pursued their genius at great personal risk--like the astronomer Galileo, who proved that the earth revolves around the sun. He and other men of genius and courage refused to be suppressed even if it meant their lives. They would permit no race, gender, group or class to keep them from their pursuit of truth and excellence whatever the cost.
If you eliminate, suppress, or debase the while male, you kill the goose that laid the golden egg. If you ace him out with "affirmative" action, exile him from the family, teach him that he’s a blight on mankind, then bon voyage to our society. We will devolve into a turd-world cesspool. Where has there ever before in history been a group of human beings who have brought about the likes of the Magna Carta, the US Constitution, and the countless life-saving and life- improving inventions that we now enjoy?
Now it is certainly true that China did lead the world in technology and commercial inventiveness about 1,000 years ago. They had great coal-mining operations, gunpowder, six-masted sailing ships, and intense commercial enterprise. But it all collapsed because the elites, the long-nailed Mandarins, centralized control--1,000 years before Mao--and crushed the expansion and inventions.
Does this mean we should sit back and let ourselves be governed by someone just because he’s a white male? Of course, it doesn’t. It means simply that we shouldn’t suppress anyone, including white males. Let our God-given gifts run free in a free and just society, free from the oppression and tyranny of social engineers. If anyone has gifts beyond our own, be he a white male or other, be grateful. Maybe we have gifts that in some small way can contribute something of value as well. One way or another, we’re all in the same boat. Few of us have truly outstanding gifts. And most of us have to humbly accept that there are others around who are more gifted than we are. In a democratic society it’s not for Big Brother to decide who shall thrive and who shall struggle in the hive.
ACCIDENs???? THESE MAKE IT TOO Many OF THEM. THE TRUTH of The MATTER IS THAT BOMBING WAS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO ABOUT SOLVING THIS PROBLEM> IT DIDN"T GIVE U YOUR MOST WANTED MAN> I'M SURE IT HAS GIVEN RISE TO HATE, EVEN WHERE THERE WAS ADMIRATION FOR AMERICANS AND THEIR STRATEGY> THE AVERAGE(non communistic)AFGHANS THOUGHT AMERICA WAS BIGGER THAN THAT. AFGHANS(MUJAHIDDIN) HAD DONE THE AMERICANS AND THOSE COUNTRIES WHERE DEMOCRACY IS PRAISED A BIG FAVOUR. THIS BY REPLACING AMERICAN AND INTERNATIONAL SOLDIERS IN THE FIGHT AGAINST THE SPREAD OF COMMUNISME> AGHANISTAN (Not VIETNAM/CHINA/EAST-EUROPEAN COUNTRIES) WAS THE BRICK IN THE DOMINO THEORY THAT STOPPED THE SPRAWL OF COMMUISTIC RUSSIA TOWARDS OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION AND TOWARDS THE INDIAN OCEAN. WHICH WOULD HAVE GIVEN RUSSIA AND ITS DICTATORIAL POLICY EVEN MORE POWER TO SPREAD EVEN FURTHER> INSTEAD RUSSIA CRAWLED BACK TO ITS NEST AND OTHER COMMUNISTIC NATION FOUND THE COURAGE TO BEAT COMMUNISME> BUT THE FACT STAYS THAT THE CHOSEN STRATEGY OF BOMBING WAS TOTALLY UNAMERICAN ( IT was more RUSSIAN, As THEY BOMBED VILLAGES AND MOUNTAINS IN AFGHANISTAN, AIMING To KILL AS MUCH AFGHAN as POSSible) SOMETIMES I WONDER WHETHER THE KILLING OF AS MUCH AFGHANS AS POSSIBLE (to get EVEN) WAS ALSO THE AIM OF BUSH.
BOMBING ====== ACCENDITAL. AND IF YOU GO FOR IT; OR YOU ARE HEARTLESS, OR IGNORANT.
IF WE(AVERGAE AFGHAN or MUSLIM) WERE TO 'KNOW' THAT BIN LADEN WAS PLANNING TO ATTACK AMERICA OR ANY OTHER NATION, I SWEAR WE WOULD DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP HIM.
WE DIDn't KNOW (HOW COuld we WE, IT WAS A VERY SECRETIVE PLAN of WHICH ONLY FEW PEOPLE WERE AWARE).EVEN TALEBAN DID NOT KNOW.
THIS WAS NOT TRUE FOR U, WHO QUITE KNOWINGLY AGRRED WITH THE BOMBARDMENT OF AFGHANISTAN ( A NATION WHICH IS SO OFTEN BOBMARDED BY THE RUSSIANS and is WORN OFF). "A NATION WHICH RAISED MEN THE SIZE OF ITS MOUNTAINS IS TURNED INTO A RUIN">
U TALK ABOUT COMPARISON. THE ABOVE WAS OUR COMPARISON IN KWALITATIVE TERMS. IN KWANTATIVE TERMS THERE ARE 4 TO 5 TIMES MORE PEOPLE KILLED IN AFGHANISTAN BY THE RECENT US-LED BOMBING THAN WAS KILLED IN WTC(non of which is justifieable).
U WANT MORE COMPARISON: DO U KNOW THAT WHEN THERE WERE RUMOURS THAT AMERICA WAS GOING BOMB AFGHANISTAN. DID U KNOW WHAT I SAID ? I SAID I HOPE THAT IS NOT TRUE< BECAUSE I DON"T WANT ANY AMERICAN (SOLDIER) KILLED BY AFGHANS OR AFGHANS KILLED BY THE AMERICAN SOLDIERS.
IT IS OUR CHOICES THAT MAKEs US DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER< FURTHER WE ARE ALL THE SAME> KNOWINGLY BOMBING OF A WAR TORN COUNTRY, THAT HAS ALSO FOUGHT FOR U WAS NOT A GOOD CHOICE>
Shows that Americans in general are pretty defensive and upset about anyone who might suggest that their nonstop warfare against the world isnt a good thing.
And it shows the ignorance of the right-wing section of the American population.
Idiots!
But there are not many who would have the knowledge or the class to respond to my informative and class-worthy comments. Ya, I guess the truth hurts, and it is easier to be superficial and take the uncivilized- way to express your selves rather than to read and think deeply(ponder). It might actually be very convinient to choose for bad-manners to communicate if u're empty of any knowledge. That is too bad for u!
If the world super powers let me and my country be, and don't go killing the educated people and innocent village people ( like the Russians did) or killing people who they think are on their way to get to resources, I and my fellow countryman would be able to contribute with our knowledge to my beautiful & decent country Afghanistan and its couragous, decent, proud and devoted people.
Personally, for u're information, I was just doing that: trying to become something to mean something to my country. But as long as Russia exists on the face of earth (specially/ unfortunatelly as our neighbour) and as long as the figth for power over more resources for the wealthiest people on the planet goes on, we Afghans don't make a chance to do something about our beloved country.
Or may be my free-spirited Afghan-people, who have overcome the invasions by the super powers( Great Britain and Soviet Union at the hight of their power) and have freed themselves from under their clutches, think and feel differently about this.
Please comment!!
Why would you expect more from a national government that sanctions the MURDER of three million children every year under the guise of the "right to choose" But of course, I'd bet, the majority of you would go to war if the government were to change the laws that allow this slaughter every day right in your hom towns.
I know it's easy to be a anti-government/anti-war/murdered afgani-baby touter/american war criminal hater. I bet near all of your ilk has no problem with our government when it comes to the 3 million american babies murdered right hear at home every year under the guise of the "right to choose". PS have you considered what it would take to chang all you claim is going on. Thats right WAR / REVOLUTION and that dear people means getting your hands dirty!
I'm still waiting for you reich-wing pussies to show up and make me leave.....annoying isn't it.
What makes me laugh is none of these idiots who scream "LEAVE" have the guts to do anything.
Ain't payback a bitch...
Seriously, though, it's a woman's choice, plain and simple. Women carry the primary burden of having and raising children in this country. Women still get paid less than men in similar jobs, there is no childcare in this country, guys are assholes and leave women to raise the children often times. Women should have the right to choose.
It's pretty disgusting that rightwingers can cry "murder" about abortions and yet be perfectly fine with the US govt. killing children and babies with bombs.
Seriously, though, it's a woman's choice, plain and simple. Women carry the primary burden of having and raising children in this country. Women still get paid less than men in similar jobs, there is no childcare in this country, guys are assholes and leave women to raise the children often times. Women should have the right to choose.
It's pretty disgusting that rightwingers can cry "murder" about abortions and yet be perfectly fine with the US govt. killing children and babies with bombs.
And how exactly has a “useless pussies” such as myself made it unpleasant for you live here? Last I checked I haven’t done anything offensive in quite a while and it sounds to me someone has self-esteem problems
And how are you going to make my life a pain? By screaming how much you hate this country and burning the American Flag? That’s not much of a payback or really bothers me that much and you’re going to have to do much than that.
Then you have we are against abortion but we would like to bomb the enemy no matter what the loss innocent life. It goes on and on but many times I fail to see a coherent moral ethic it's more of an ethic of convience. Take me I see both abortion and execution to be murder. It seems consistant. I see that we have been building bombs that are less likley to create great loss of civillian life. All war is killing the enemy from whatever perspective you choose. History is replete with war and it's not likley to stop as long as mankind is on the planet. I trust the government to an extent but prefer to be armed for my own protection from both criminals and government criminals. I'm no child nor a religious zelot I believe in living and letting live. I have killed and would do so again if a threat to myself or my loved ones arose. While I do not like so much of the corruption in our nation I see other nations with much worse problems. Utopia does not exist in this world but for the most part Americans live pretty well depending on their intellect and work ethic.I do not pretend to know vary much and am perhaps a bit simple in my way of thinking. Most of the posts on this site both left and right seem silly to me or perhaps, extreme is more to the point. I do not want to take away any persons right to choose. I would always urge them to choose life over death. I wouldencourage women to choose birth control and protected sex over birth control by abortion. No one will ever convince me that a developed child in the womb is not life. Just look at a sonogram of a four or five or six or seven month old in the womb. I'm sorry but the justification you expouse for abortion is not justification for the murder of these babies.
Sure, this country may be a little bit "better" in some ways than others. But, you can't absolve the govt. from how it. keeps other countries down and impoverished.
Shoot any clinic workers/doctors lately?
Or am I confusing you for Richard Allen Davis?
Or am I confusing you with Richard Allen Davis?
We spend more money jailing people than it would take to send them to Harvard. The system is skewed grossly against minorities and the poor. Legal representation for the poor is a sham to the extreme. The war on drugs a massive failure and the outlandish federal minimums for crack v coke are without a doubt the institutionalization of the KKK in government.
To have a war one mut have casualties (body count) the white middle and upper class would not stand to have white kids sentenced to twenty years for simple possession of five grams of coke. To prove they are "winning" thay have turned the poor into lifers and thus sustain the never ending ever expanding Law Enforcement Growth Industry.
The latest is to make the prisoners slave labor for private industry. This puts non-inmates out of work and they in many cases may resort t crime to sustain themselves. Once this spreads far enough all will have to go to prison to get a job in the slave labor industry.
Even so, keep the faith and work for change. To do this you need allies not enemies so while you write use convincing argument (do not alienaite by extremeisms it scares pople who are afraid of change) you will be supprised how many people truly understand some of the major short comings of government. Convince people that they are the government and we can change things if we perservere with abiding faith in our beliefs. Remember history as it is bound to repeat itself. When government becomes to oppressive the people will change it through whatever means necessary. You can make book on it.
The first rule of the TAO is to keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer.
It must be hard for you “Make Me” to have nothing but anger and rage in your heart and to lack the inner self control not to give into that hate. You truly have my pity.
I've already managed to push three morons like you to the point of assaulting me, and I love defending myself.
Aww, you poor thing, playing the wounded party suits you doesn't it...problem is people already know you're a fuckhead.
I hope some day that you can find the love and the inner peace that is lacking in tormented soul.
You play the mock victim game well, been doing this for long?
You're repeating yourself, time for a new role, ever concidered playing Goebbels?
While you are on your tirade, don’t forget to mention about me being an imperialist, a Zionist, an Elitist, an Anti-Environmentalist, and we can not forget that I’m a fascist too. I’m sure there are a couple of other titles and accusation you would like to deem me as… And who is starting to sound like a broken record?
Good Luck and Best Wishes in finding that Love and Inner Peace
"Because I'm just as big of an asshole as Make Me."
Face it, you blew it already....
I noticed it took you quite a while to respond, busy making a donut run?
I voted for Bush, because I knew he'd fuck up the country....you voted for him because you are as big of a sheep as the rest of these idiots.
Nessie...I lied, you and SFB fell for it.
The question really is whether or not abortion should be legal. The answer to this questions, to me at least relies more on ont thing than anything else and that is abortions will happen. There can be no doubt about that. Abortions happened before Roe v. Wade and would still continue to happen if it was reversed. This is hardly disputable but if someone wants to try I willing to listen.
If one accepts that abortion will happen, you choose one of two things: to employ clinics and doctors to aminister the abortion, or you employ a butcher. Butchers not only kill the foetus, but often they injure or maim the woman and sometimes even kill her to.
It is on this ground that I beleive sensible people will be pro-choice. People who support men with coat hangers to cut up the insides of some young girl are morally repugnant.
You are an American hero sir. Your record of service is a true inspiration. Its a wonderful thing to know you contribute to this site. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. We know some of the same men I am sure. And if not we surely know some of the same brothers of brothers.
Educating Nessie, with his MO, may be far more harmful than assisting any potential wannabes.
As for Nessie, we need the Nessie's of the world. I went to war to protect the right of all Americans to express their opinions. While I may disagree with some of Nessie's more extreme positions I give him credit for having the courage to express them.
Do you know what it was like to walk through hell and I understand these people go through it almost everyday, but it is them who attacked us........get a grip people, war is war.........people's children were lost here as well and the young one's had to watch there parents die and experience the anxiety of the UNKNOWN as well. Next time you think to stop the war why not sit back and think about what happened that day while you were all tucked away in la la land.....
Yeah. I felt blood thirsty at first. I still am horrified by it. That's why I demand answers. That's why I demand an investigation. I don't let the Bushies whip me into an ignorant frenzy. That's silly. They are ultimately accountable for what happened. And for them to opportunistically use this tragedy as an excuse to sieze control of oil fields and crack down on civil rights is criminal. This whole criminal enterprise needs to be lined up against a wall and shot. Shame on you for falling for this. There are also many people who were there, who lost family members, but have the wisdom to question the Bush regime as well. Are they assholes too? Go back to the Freeper site where you belong.
- Not that I condole any of that.
Killing innocent people is an action wished by the devil (not by a muslim, jew, christian etc.) A human- being is a humanbeing: american, muslim, jew, arab, indian etc doesn't matter.
FINDING THE REASON AND SOLVING IT IS THE ANSWER!!
WHAT MIGHt Be the REASON? (KEY WORDs=ARE= OIL and FIGHT for POWER, RUSSIA's dirty rol behind the scene, Western Dubbel standards, Suffering of certain people).
- FOCUS: Let me (as someone who knows a littel bit more than the average world citizen who haven't experinced the drak side of the politics) ''inform you" about something. Something YOU MIGHT FIND OUT In THE FUTURE (if the intelligence find it out and let it slip away) .
Behind these unacceptable actions (of men who call themselves musilms) lies two factors:
1. Those who attack U're nations are (as human beings, not as muslim) angry at the system in their countries and the dubble standard that is being applied towards their people by the worlds'powerful nations'. The problems in the middel-east that is causing the death of many muslims and jews alike is a major source of their anger.
2. Their anger(middel-east isuue) has been fueled and being used by the other nations (= former powerful nation of Russia'; indirectly) to:
- DESTROY the partnership of its powerful counterparts (USA & W- Europe) with 'the OIL-RICH- ARAB- nations !!! TO WIN THE Oil-rich AREA's favor for itself or at least crack down its counterparts by muslims who Russia actullay hates so much. (Compare: Russia's opposition to many issues concerning Iraq , while when it came to Afghanistan "A Country who beat Russia in the cold war and won the war for USA & W-Europe and has no oil", Russia was more than pleased to support its bombordement).
As a matter of fact I KNOW the STORY of Arab-young men, who have seen their familiy members being killed in Palestine or their country and who have decided to join one of these so called "marters groups'' and ARE SENT TO MOSCOW-Russia to get professional training. What is up with that?!! !! !! !! !! !!!
Other Arabs (younger generation: up to 55), I've heard speaking kindly of Russia(n-communists). When you tell them that they are atheist, THEY DON''T CARE. A REAL MUSLIM would DEFINTLY care. >>>>>>
IT SHOWs that those 'Young muslim/ Arabmen' ARE NOT motivitated By their Religion in attacking your countries, but by the suffering of their people (ignored by the west) , while they are being supported by the (motivated) Russia''. WHO HAS AN EYE ON YHE REGION'S OIL AND WANTs TO REGAIN ITS LOST POWER & BEAT USA and see Muslims and the west fight and destroy each other.
CONCLUSION: the actions of the young muslim(arab) men are merely the face of a race for power (OIL) by Russia in secretive alliance with ''Saddam Hussein and Arafat and Al-axa group'' against USA and its allies.
THE KEY to solving the problem is to "take away the instrument with which Russia & its servants motivate YOUNG ARAB men to attack USA& the WEST. The instrument is ''the isuue of the middel east''. THIs issue (like a germ) is being used to spread hatrate among muslims across the world (It should be stopped).
TRUE MUSLIMS (ISLAM) are not to blame HERE? THEY ANd THEIR FEELINGs ARE BEING USED TO SERVE ANOTHER PLAN OF AN EX-POWERFUL COUNTRY TO REGAIN HIS POWER BACK. USING THE SUFFERING OF PALESTINIANS AS A TOOL .
DID You EVER think: Why do some of the men from the younger generation of arabs(muslims) are attacking the USA or the WESt and not the generations before?
The answer is the political -game has shifted toward their nations. IF Islam is the REASON, WHY they are aggressive ''now'' and not ''before''!!
I hope I have given u some insight into the origions of the problem.
MAY GOD SAVE ALL TRUE BELIEVERS
- Not that I condole any of that.
Killing innocent people is an action wished by the devil (not by a muslim, jew, christian etc.) A human- being is a humanbeing: american, muslim, jew, arab, indian etc doesn't matter.
FINDING THE REASON AND SOLVING IT IS THE ANSWER!!
WHAT MIGHt Be the REASON? (KEY WORDs=ARE= OIL and FIGHT for POWER, RUSSIA's dirty rol behind the scene, Western Dubbel standards, Suffering of certain people).
- FOCUS: Let me (as someone who knows a littel bit more than the average world citizen who haven't experinced the drak side of the politics) ''inform you" about something. Something YOU MIGHT FIND OUT In THE FUTURE (if the intelligence find it out and let it slip away) .
Behind these unacceptable actions (of men who call themselves musilms) lies two factors:
1. Those who attack U're nations are (as human beings, not as muslim) angry at the system in their countries and the dubble standard that is being applied towards their people by the worlds'powerful nations'. The problems in the middel-east that is causing the death of many muslims and jews alike is a major source of their anger.
2. Their anger(middel-east isuue) has been fueled and being used by the other nations (= former powerful nation of Russia'; indirectly) to:
- DESTROY the partnership of its powerful counterparts (USA & W- Europe) with 'the OIL-RICH- ARAB- nations !!! TO WIN THE Oil-rich AREA's favor for itself or at least crack down its counterparts by muslims who Russia actullay hates so much. (Compare: Russia's opposition to many issues concerning Iraq , while when it came to Afghanistan "A Country who beat Russia in the cold war and won the war for USA & W-Europe and has no oil", Russia was more than pleased to support its bombordement).
As a matter of fact I KNOW the STORY of Arab-young men, who have seen their familiy members being killed in Palestine or their country and who have decided to join one of these so called "marters groups'' and ARE SENT TO MOSCOW-Russia to get professional training. What is up with that?!! !! !! !! !! !!!
Other Arabs (younger generation: up to 55), I've heard speaking kindly of Russia(n-communists). When you tell them that they are atheist, THEY DON''T CARE. A REAL MUSLIM would DEFINTLY care. >>>>>>
IT SHOWs that those 'Young muslim/ Arabmen' ARE NOT motivitated By their Religion in attacking your countries, but by the suffering of their people (ignored by the west) , while they are being supported by the (motivated) Russia''. WHO HAS AN EYE ON YHE REGION'S OIL AND WANTs TO REGAIN ITS LOST POWER & BEAT USA and see Muslims and the west fight and destroy each other.
CONCLUSION: the actions of the young muslim(arab) men are merely the face of a race for power (OIL) by Russia in secretive alliance with ''Saddam Hussein and Arafat and Al-axa group'' against USA and its allies.
THE KEY to solving the problem is to "take away the instrument with which Russia & its servants motivate YOUNG ARAB men to attack USA& the WEST. The instrument is ''the isuue of the middel east''. THIs issue (like a germ) is being used to spread hatrate among muslims across the world (It should be stopped).
TRUE MUSLIMS (ISLAM) are not to blame HERE? THEY ANd THEIR FEELINGs ARE BEING USED TO SERVE ANOTHER PLAN OF AN EX-POWERFUL COUNTRY TO REGAIN HIS POWER BACK. USING THE SUFFERING OF PALESTINIANS AS A TOOL .
DID You EVER think: Why do some of the men from the younger generation of arabs(muslims) are attacking the USA or the WESt and not the generations before?
The answer is the political -game has shifted toward their nations. IF Islam is the REASON, WHY they are aggressive ''now'' and not ''before''!!
I hope I have given u some insight into the origions of the problem.
MAY GOD SAVE ALL TRUE BELIEVERS
She (the Afghan Girl in the attached picture) has had, like many Afghans(non-communists ones ofcourse), a simillar story to 12 year old injured girl shown in de picture(above).
The only difference is that this time it wasn't the Russians and not the English, but it was the Americans who hurt and infanted her.
Look at the face of a girl who was infanted by the regular russians bombardement in the 1980's and at the age of 30 she looks damn old. O ja she became refugee then. She returned when the Afghan Mujaheddin and Taliban took over their country. With the new bombardments she has to run away again.
AND WE AFGHANS ARE SUPPOSED TO THINK WELL OF THE OUTSIDERS WHO MERELY HAVE AN EYE ON OUR COUNTRY (due to its stratigical location) HURTING ITS PEOPLE, LIKE THEY ARE NOTHING.
WHILE THE TRUE AFGHANS ARE 'BRAVE' & 'HOSPITABLE' like no one I HAVE EVER, or ANY WERE HAVE KNOWN !!!
With regards to China, I'm still investigating (searching for information). But from bits I've gathered, Al Queda and Al-axa have received weapons from China.
I think China (especillay the people) is trying to become part of the International community, but its politics want (or do) that in an oppurtunistic way. If the tides turn in favor of Russia(its close friend), it will go back and help to profit from the possible oil-gains. Otherwise it will stay and cooperate with the western world to share with the profits of the world economies.
But meanwhile she is open toward teh west and secretively helping Russia in its dirty plan.
so fucking stupid? YOU enlisted yet morons? I swear
you must have your head tucked why up your ass!
RATHER THAN EXPLAIN TO YOU JUST HOW STUPID YOU ARE
LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION...
Do you really believe a terrorist would pull a stunt
like 9/11 and NOT claim responsibility for it?
They ALWAYS used to, because they wanted to know where
it came from to be followed by certain demands.
This is NOT terrorism, it's a crime and we should
FIND OUT WHO DID IT not shoot off our mouths and our
own brand of terrorism!
How can you grade human life?
Taleban were never in the US, where did you come up with that?
Did You know that the Taleban high officials (minister of external affairs) had INFORMED the UN-workers in Afghanistan and the Pakistani -intelligence about a MAJOR ATTACK that Al Queda had planned on the US.(this according to BBC, twee weeks ago).
The TALIBAN did this because, according to the high officials, Al Queda (a group that helped Afghans in their freedom fight against the Russian invasion) WERE going to RUIN ''the Guesthouse" (i.e. Afghanistan) if they committed such an attack. Remember Afghans are Extremely Hospitable (especially to those who helped them during their rough time=Russian invasion).
Taliban leader, on the other hand, is said to have had a meeting with the Bush-familly, at their Texas-ranch. This was before the Taleban took over Afghanistan. Apparently a deal was made between them.
The Taleban, were the most organized Afghan group, who were able to bring order in the chaos (that was left due to the Soviet invasion of) Afghanistan.
They proved their effectiveness, in 1994, when they managed to uphold order on the 'new trade way' between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Who are the Taliban? the Taleban mainly consisted of young men, who as childeren had seen their villages bombarded by the Russians (when they had invaded Afghanistan). They had seen their famillies killed. They had become refugees in Pakistan and were recruited and trained by the ''Pakistani -intelligence'' (financed by the US in his war against the spread of Soviet inflence). They were to go back to Afghanistan and retaliate or fight the Russians. They had a dream for Afghanistan and their only fault was their culturally rooted hospitablity. Al Queda, on the other hand misused their hospitablity to fight their own cause in the middel East (Independent Palestina, uplift of embargo's on Iraq and return of American soldiers from the holly land of Saudi Arabia).
Taleban didn't have any thing to do with the 11 septemeber horror. And Afghan people even less. They only wanted to bring order in the chaos and normality. O ja, Afghan(mujahids= freedom fighters)were once praised by the west and US. Because they served as American soldiers in the Asia, against the spread of Soviet territorial influence. America helped some of them with weapons for this cause. America did n't send american soldiers to that fight because, the american public opinion was against it at the time. Americans did not wanted to waste their and other human lives after the Vietnam-experience (also a figth between USSR and the USA).
How can you grade human life?
Taleban were never in the US, where did you come up with that?
Did You know that the Taleban high officials (minister of external affairs) had INFORMED the UN-workers in Afghanistan and the Pakistani -intelligence about a MAJOR ATTACK that Al Queda had planned on the US.(this according to BBC, twee weeks ago).
The TALIBAN did this because, according to the high officials, Al Queda (a group that helped Afghans in their freedom fight against the Russian invasion) WERE going to RUIN ''the Guesthouse" (i.e. Afghanistan) if they committed such an attack. Remember Afghans are Extremely Hospitable (especially to those who helped them during their rough time=Russian invasion).
Taliban leader, on the other hand, is said to have had a meeting with the Bush-familly, at their Texas-ranch. This was before the Taleban took over Afghanistan. Apparently a deal was made between them(was related to oil in the region).
The Taleban, were the most organized Afghan group, who were able to bring order in the chaos (that was left due to the Soviet invasion of) Afghanistan.
They proved their effectiveness, in 1994, when they managed to uphold order on the 'new trade way' between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Who are the Taliban? the Taleban mainly consisted of young men, who as childeren had seen their villages bombarded by the Russians (when they had invaded Afghanistan). They had seen their famillies killed. They had become refugees in Pakistan and were recruited and trained by the ''Pakistani -intelligence'' (financed by the US in his war against the spread of Soviet inflence). They were to go back to Afghanistan and retaliate or fight the Russians. They had a dream for Afghanistan and their only fault was their culturally rooted hospitablity. Al Queda, on the other hand misused their hospitablity to fight their own cause in the middel East (Independent Palestina, uplift of embargo's on Iraq and return of American soldiers from the holly land of Saudi Arabia).
Taleban didn't have any thing to do with the 11 septemeber horror. And Afghan people even less. They only wanted to bring order in the chaos and normality. O ja, Afghan(mujahids= freedom fighters)were once praised by the west and US. Because they served as American soldiers in the Asia, against the spread of Soviet territorial influence. America helped some of them with weapons for this cause. America did n't send american soldiers to that fight because, the american public opinion was against it at the time. Americans did not wanted to waste their and other human lives after the Vietnam-experience (also a figth between USSR and the USA).
uhhhhhh ..... where have you been?? You don't remember people jumping from the building etc? In the wake of that there was a media blackout on anything more grim being seen as too traumatic for the American people, a viewpoint echoed mainly by conservatives.
How do kids with rocks return fire on jets with napalm bombs?? Battle and war, since WW2, is all about killing civilians, in case you didn't notice. Sure sometimes opposing militaries actually duke it out, but most of the time its just bombing factory workers and killing the other guy's working class.
It's easy to get angry, it's not easy to understand.
Yes, Schmidt, let's act like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. and exterminate all cultures.
If they're so hot for his war, how come they're not elisted? Who do they expect to fight their war? Evidently not them, or their children. Chicken shit hypocrites!
Tell them to sign-up and fight !
or shut the fuck up!
1) The Taliban and Al Queda are NOT the same group. The Taliban is the defunct government of Afghanistan, Al Queda is a terrorist organization.
2) The Afghan people are not the target of the American military machine. Al Queda and their supporters are.
3) NO Afghanies where on the flights used in the attacks on Sept 11 yet some of you continue to imply there were.
4) All Muslims are NOT violent and anti-west. The majority are actually peace loving people. It's the extremist that give Muslims a bad name. It's the extremist that oppress women and freedoms the rest of us take for granite, to include access to media, television, music, etc.
Those are a few of the errors I noted with a brief browse through what has been posted recently. Before any one starts screaming about this post you may want to ask Nessie or Aaron how pro-American I am, I'm sure they will recall some of our previous discussions. However, it is important to state things correctly and not stereotype people based on ethnicity or religious belief.
Enough said.
1. Osama was linked to and later proved to be the man behind the Al-Quada attacks on the US.
2. Osama was in Afghanistan.
3. U.S. says "Give us Osama."
4. Taliban says "Go screw yourself."
5. U.S. says "Will give you one month to give him over, or were coming in after him....and you."
6. Taliban says "Just try it!! We'll kick your ass!!"
7. U.S. says "We're coming...are you gonna give him over? Nope?"
8. U.S. Kicks the Taliban's ass for harboring terrorists.
9. Afghanistan gets a fledgling chance for democracy backed up by the Tribal Leaders of Afghanistan.
10. U.S. starts building roads, schools, and hospitals and basically begins building Afghanistan better than it was to begin with.
" It is the American way, Sir!
Unfortunately they believe their own gloss 'n' floss.
Worse, the American people believe it.
This is what makes the US so dangerous - theu believe their own balona, their false ideals and worst of all, the Amrican Preznit believes a god is one America's side.
Such beliefs in divine guidance are what makes the US - as with many other terrorists - so dangerous.
America is one of a minority of countries which still have the death penalty.
Those who long gave up this practice see it as being against human rights and a medievil and barbaric method of punishment method of punishment.
The US's own CIA and FBI are reknowned for killing its own American citizens.
Who has the ability and/or courage to force a régime change in America?
Thank you for the mentalterrorists link - I particularly found: http://www.mentalterrorists.com/pee.gif of interest - it expresses the sentiments of may.
~~~~~ Raymond ~~~~~ ®