When pro-Palestinian supporters become blind to prejudice....

that doesn't mean that everyone else who wants to end Israeli occupation is a kook. However, we do need to call attention to the kooks because they hurt the cause.

you'll never read a story on sf indymedia about a rally in sf held to condemn the 'palestinian support' of palestinian citizens in never ending waves seeking out and killing israeli children.

that would hurt the cause.

to everyone the deaths of innocent palestinians is a horrific happening. to sfimc'ers targeting israeli children by palestinians is an acceptable defense strategy.

and i'm the evil robot sheep. and youre the progressive caring alternative.

-- "you'll never read a story on sf indymedia about a rally in sf held to condemn the 'palestinian support' of palestinian citizens in never ending waves seeking out and killing israeli children. "

Nobody is defending the killing of Israeli children. But the fact is, the vast majority of children killed in this conflict are Palestinian. And they are killed with our weapons that we give to Israel for free.

Palestinians are not occupying Israel. Israel is occupying Palestine and they do it with our money (all the "aid" we give them). That's why people are protesting against Israel and not Palestinians. There is no symmetry in this conflict. The vast majority of the violence is committed by Israel and it all results from their occupation which in turn is fed by the Israeli government's appetite for more land.

The fact is, most decent people have turned a blind eye to Israeli injustices in the past. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon is proof of that. With the exception of Noam Chomsky, most people on the left were content to leave that alone even though Israeli forces were indiscriminately bombarding civilian targets with our tanks, jets, and artillery killing at least 20,000 people.

I know the above article is anti-Semitic (or at the very least borders on it). The fact is, not all Jews are elites. Most are working people like everyone else. Most may support Israel, but most non-Jewish Americans support Israel as well, thanks to the media.

I don't see anything anti-Semitic about stopping all aid to Israel though.

why not? make military aid completely illegal. Everyones so hung up on drugs - at least they are not machines for the express purpose of killing human beings. Just as addictive too, apparently. Yeah. Military aid ought to be totally illegal. Lets stop arming a world that will someday bite back.

the fact is, far more Palestinian children have been killed. The fact you are blind to that causes some suspicion that you are indeed racist. The fact that you cannot judge things by facts but just regurgitate the mainstream line makes us think you are a robot. The fact you really just enjoy war, as long as you get to watch it from an armchair, makes us think you are blind hateful and verminous. The real fact is, we've tried your old tired version of the solution and where the hell has it got us? Time now for you folks to step aside. You've fucked the economy beyond belief, you've fucked up internationally, you've fucked up environmentally. I can't see A SINGLE THING that the conservative agenda has succeeded at. Who has benefitted from Bush? If it were even the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer your agenda might have some merit to at least some people - but now even the rich are getting poorer, along with the rest of us. Its over for the conservatives now; Bush is a last desperate attempt, and when he's gone your cause will be discredited forever.

Did you know . . .

AIPAC takes congress people on free all-expenses-paid trips to Israel *before* they're even elected. And we don't hear about it because they don't invite the media. Even the head of the board of supervisors in San Francisco was taken to Israel and - consequently - told them how he supports Israel, is behind them, etc. But most San Franciscans don't know about this. Why? Because AIPAC doesn't want the public to know how they're slowly devouring our government.

Vote Green - no bribes involved.

"Israel is occupying Palestine and they do it with our money "

I want you to understand it once and for all:
1. Israel was attacked by three Arab armies in 1967.
2. Israel managed to defeat its aggressors and to capture the West bank from the kingdom of Jordan and the Gaza strip from Egypt.
3. Israel has signed peace accords with Jordan and Egypt and neither wanted the land back.
4. There is non-Jewish population in these disputed territories and in 1967 they decided to call themselves "Palestinians".
5. Israel is hardly a colonialist country - it returned the entire Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in exchange for peace and other land in southern Israel to Jordan.
6. There was never an autonomous Arab nation in Palestine. Certainly not in the West bank or Gaza, these territories belonged to Jordan and Egypt respectively and their occupants had Jordanian and Egyptians citizenships.
7. 95% of the Palestinians lived under Yasser Arafat’s rule in November 2000, when they launched the El-Aqsa war. That can hardly be called “occupation”. The tanks, bulldozers, check points and raids came a year after dozens of Palestinian suicide bombers murdered hundreds of Israeli citizens mostly teenagers.

No amount of history can justify taking away people's civil rights. In Nazi Germany, the Jewish people were pushed into ghettoes like in Warsaw. They never had an independant state in Germany. Does this make it OK to repress and liquidate them? NO! It is wrong to oppress the Palestinian people. It is wrong to suicide bomb people too, but the Israelis did that at one time, too.

Despite the fact that Israel has obtained the 1967 lands by treaty, they are still considered 'occupied'. It is against the Geneva convention to settle occupied land. This was written to prevent lebensraum-style events.

Despite the fact Sinai was returned, Israel colonizes the West Bank and Gaza oppressing the native inhabitants. Yes, it did return Sinai, but this does not buy it credibility. If I mug 3 people and steal money off each of them, but I give money back to one of them, I am still a thief and robber.

In 2000, were there no Israeli settlements spread out all over occupied land? Was the Israeli military not in presence throughout all of Palestine within the settlement network?

Your arguments fall flat. Nothing you have stated contradicts the fact that, whatever the justification, Israel occupies Palestine and they do it with our money. Why should we pay? There are many justified and unjustified occupations and wars all over the world, we don't send them billions of dollars in freebies every year. Why should some tiny little country that COULD have been located anywhere else get all our money? My feeling is that Israel chose a stupid place to build its state, I don't care if they were there 3000 years ago, that's ancient history. If they really wanted to have a place safe from anti-semitism as they say so often, they would not have chosen the place they did, they would have picked somewhere more remote and less populated. The fact is that Israel is no refuge for the Jews, it is a dangerous deadly place. And I'm going to fight against having to pay for it. Deal with it.

"Despite the fact that Israel has obtained the 1967 lands by treaty, they are still considered 'occupied'"

Is it? By whom? By the cripple and pro-Islamic UN?
Are these territories more occupied than say, California, or North Carolina? Why? Judaism started in Israel and there has been continuous presence of Jews in Palestine ever since. Does white European have roots in North America?

"If I mug 3 people and steal money off each of them, but I give money back to one of them, I am still a thief and robber"

Not if these three people jumped you and you took that money as compensation with the blessing of these people. If you'd like, the Palestinians are like a man who came afterwards and demanded that money, claiming it is actually his, he just happened to forget it while it was in the other peoples possession for thirty years.

the Palestinians did not come to the region 30 years later; regardless of whether they had a state or not, they were living there. Who cares about governments? Your argument falls flat since I could use your logic and say that the Warsaw Ghetto was OK since German Jews never had their own gov't. If the land is NOT occupied that is fine with me. Give the Palestinians equal rights to vote and hold office and work and travel freely on the roads and Israel will become no longer a Jewish state but a multi-ethnic one with a mixed government.

the Palestinians did not come to the region 30 years later; regardless of whether they had a state or not, they were living there. Who cares about governments? Your argument falls flat since I could use your logic and say that the Warsaw Ghetto was OK since German Jews never had their own gov't. If the land is NOT occupied that is fine with me. Give the Palestinians equal rights to vote and hold office and work and travel freely on the roads and Israel will become no longer a Jewish state but a multi-ethnic one with a mixed government.

I still don't see why I should have to pay for the Zionist mistake of choosing their new state in a conflict hotspot. That's like me saying gee, I want to be free from violence, I think I will go move to the LA ghetto. Oh no! They are trying to rob me! Somebody else has to pay for this! If Zionists want a state to be free from anti-semitism then they should have chosen a place less likely to be such a hotspot. Its hardly turned out to be a solution for anti-semitism. I don't want to pay for it. In fact, since we got involved and subsequently attacked, I think Israel owes us. They should be paying US for support, not the other way around. We don't need Israel: it's not our problem. What we need is to stop getting involved in other people's problems and worry about the fact our own cities are swamped in drugs and poverty, world opinion is against us, our civil rights are going down the toilet, we pay for too many weapons, our economy is going to shit. We've got our own problems right now, thankyou very much Israel. We bailed your ass twice already, now I think it's time for us to be a little rational and worry about ourselves. I would think Israel should understand that and be a bit more thankful for what we have given already, for rescuing you from Hitler and for all the money we have already sent. But no. You get angry when we even suggest that maybe we don't want to fork over any more. Why do we owe you???????????

"fact our own cities are swamped in drugs and poverty,"
you arent in america. because if you are, you are dreaming this.

"world opinion is against us"
and the tripping continues.

"our civil rights are going down the toilet"
what country do you live in?

"our economy is going to shit"
thats a load of crap.

"be a little rational and worry about ourselves"
and when we do you run and hide in your pipe.

"We don't need Israel: it's not our problem." i agree we dont need israel and israel isnt our problem. i agree we shouldnt send them money.
but when anyone anywhere straps a bomb to there body and goes looking for children to kill. we should EXTERMINATE them. thats right i said EXTERMINATE. like when you drop a NUCLEAR DEVICE on something and then it is gone. as if by magic. as if by video trickery.

nexxie honey, you have your tongue up the ass of the most vile people in human history. and like them , no regrets, no apologies.

did you decide on using X2 ? because youre still using nessie on your instead of reposts stuff. what gives?

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky_qa.html
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky.html

New Questioner, #5:
I just felt that there were a few facts that you didn’t mention and I wonder why. For instance, if I go back to the ’67 war, it’s a fact that Israel was attacked. It was a self defense war and it wasn’t mentioned. If we are talking about the Lebanon war, I mean, the life of the Israelis who lived in the Galilee were hell for years, attacks and children in shelters, children murdered at schools, you didn’t mention it. And recent things, like the killing in Gaza, which I am against violence and I don’t justify any kind of violence, but the Gaza event in Netzarim, you didn’t mention and it happened one month ago, the school bus of Israeli children who went to school that was bombed by Palestinians, and this creates the reaction. You didn’t also mention what happened after the parade. I think it is a mistake to bring so many policemen to where people go out from the Mosque, but what really started it, and I read it in the newspaper because I live here right now, it was when the Arabs finished praying, they just threw stones at the Jews who were praying downstairs on the Western Wall. I mean, you didn’t even mention it. You know, I don’t think that violence is justified but I think that also the Jews in Israel have the right not to be murdered and not to live in shelters and not to live - I remember myself in shelters for so many years. I mean, all of these events not mentioned by you, even a hint, and this is what bothers me.

Noam Chomsky:
Okay, well you are absolutely right, I didn’t mention the atrocities committed against Jews and I didn’t mention the vastly worse atrocities committed against Arabs. For example, in discussing this kind of Intifada, I said absolutely nothing about the atrocities. So, you’re right. I didn’t mention the few cases in which atrocities were committed against Jews, or the many cases in which atrocities were committed against Arabs. And the same in the past. I barely mentioned them, because I was talking about other things. However, we could, but then we will balance it. I mean, for example, it is simply not a fact that the Palestinians coming out of the Mosques started throwing stones down below, and if you read Ha'aretz, you’ll see that it’s not a fact. That happened after the border guards were shooting.

Same Questioner, #5:
Was the killing of the children who went to school, is that a true fact or not?

Noam Chomsky:
Yes, it was. That is a true fact as was -

Same Questioner, #5:
Why did you choose among these true facts, just to mention the fact that people were killed by the American helicopters– and you didn’t mention the children who were murdered on their way to school -

Noam Chomsky:
For a simple reason, because the overwhelming mass of the atrocities are by Israel and the United States. I am talking about the United States and our supply of military helicopters. If we were providing guns to the Palestinians to kill Israelis and the Palestinians were carrying out 90 percent of the atrocities, I’d talk about that. But I’m talking about our providing military helicopters to the Israelis to carry out 90 percent of the atrocities. That is why I mentioned it, but barely.
(Same Questioner, #5, but inaudible)
May I continue?
Let’s go back to 1967 and 1982. In 1967, Israel was not attacked and nobody even pretends that. I mean, back at the time, Abba Eban, it was his job at the UN to claim that Israel was attacked. He knew it was a lie, and what he was saying were total lies. And you can’t even get this in Israeli –

Same Questioner, #5:
And about the attack in ’73, ’72?

Noam Chomsky:
You want to go back to that? Let’s take a look at ’67. I’ll come then next to ’73. In 1967, Israel launched the war. Now you could say it was a legitimate pre-emptive strike if you like, but there is just no question that Israel attacked. Okay? That is not even a matter of debate. As for 1973, no, Israel was not attacked. What was attacked was Israeli occupied territory. Egypt attacked Egyptian territory that was held by Israel under the conditions that I described, after Israel refused a peace treaty. The fact of the matter is, there is not one case in which Israel was attacked.

In 1982 - you’ve got your dates mixed up.
There was a time when people were hiding in the Galilee but not in 1981. 1981 was an extremely peaceful year, there were no attacks from the North to the South, zero.

Same Questioner, #5:
I lived in the – in the 80’s children lived in shelters every weekend-

Noam Chomsky:
In the 80’s, that is after, right? May I continue?

Same Questioner, #5:
Also the - university - and all the media, the CNN, are in the territories, and you get all the information through the media, and you say there was no university, no media, no attacks on Israelis. I mean, we were in the shelters and you stand here and said that there were no shelters.

Noam Chomsky:
No, I didn’t say that. I said in 1981, up until the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, there were no attacks from the North. There were plenty of attacks from the South. Israel was regularly bombing Lebanon, trying to elicit some kind of PLO response, which would be a justification for the planned invasion. And they were bombing fishing boats, they were attacking villages, they were killing all sorts of people and there was nothing in response. Israel attacked in 1982 (and they were pretty frank about it) because they were afraid of PLO moderation. They were afraid that the PLO was abandoning terrorism and was moving toward a political settlement, and that is what Israel does not want. They made it pretty clear. Like, if you were there at the time, and you were reading the papers, you would have read it. For example, a couple of weeks after the,- right after the invasion - you heard of Yehoshua Porath – who is, as I’m sure you know, the leading Israeli academic expert on the Palestinians, a pretty conservative guy incidentally, wrote an article in Ha'aretz, in which he pointed out that we had to invade Lebanon because what was happening was what he called a veritable catastrophe. The PLO was refusing to carry out terrorist acts. They were becoming a kind of a moderate force. For Israel this is impossible, we want them to go back to terrorism, and Israel tried to elicit terrorism. Now take a look at what happened after that. I mean, if you want, I’ll direct you to Israeli sources, but right after that period, Israel was regularly provoking attacks inside Lebanon, and when they would bomb somewhere in Lebanon, there would be a response in which Kiryat Shemona would get a Katyusha attack. That was happening consistently, and in fact, it mostly happened after 1982.

Same Questioner, #5:
Why would they attack now when Israeli already withdrew? It’s not true. In the 1980’s, we were in the shelters.

Noam Chomsky:
May I continue?

Same Questioner, #5:
You read only the articles that serve your point.

Noam Chomsky:
No, I don’t. So we agree, I presume, that everything you have said so far is false. Now, lets look to the present. Let’s take a look at the present case. Finally Israel withdrew after 22 years of illegal occupation in which it killed about 45,000 people, kind of trivial, right?

Same Questioner, #5 Nobody of course from the Israeli –

Noam Chomsky:
A few dozen were killed in Israel. Count it up. And almost every case was retaliation for an Israeli attack in Lebanon. There was a standard cycle, what happened over and over. It’s very well documented. The Israeli forces in southern Lebanon, the occupying forces in southern Lebanon or their mercenary army, the SLA, would be attacked by the resistance, Hizbollah, and then Israel would retaliate by bombing Beirut or some refugee camp and so on, and then Hizbollah would send rockets to northern Israel. That was the regular cycle, almost invariant. And, in fact, that cycle began in an interesting way. It began in 1992. From 1981 right through 1992, there was almost nothing except Israeli attacks in Lebanon of which there were numerous ones, like Shimon Peres’ 1985 iron fist operations right in the middle of Lebanon were murderous and it was well reported in the Israeli press. There was almost no retaliation. In 1992, something changed, and it was described very accurately, for example, by Moshe Arens, nice, right-wing Minister of Defense, you know, you don’t have to worry about his politics. He explained that in 1992, the rules of the game changed. How did they change? Well, Israel had carried out an assassination of a Shi'ite cleric, and they killed him and his wife and child and then bombed an ambulance that was trying to come and pick them up. And you say, well okay, that changed the rules of the game. From now on, after this period in fact, what happened is what I just described, the cycle that after Hizbollah attacks on Israeli forces or their mercenary army, Israel would respond farther north, killing people, and then after 1992, Hizbollah would also attack northern Israel. Now if you go back to the early 70’s, what you are describing is at least partially true. But after that, it’s simply not true.

Same Questioner, #5:
The Lebanon War -

(inaudible voices of others)

Noam Chomsky:
It’s a very important question. If you like, I would be glad to give you the highest level Israel sources which discuss and describe the Lebanon War. What you are hearing is probably propaganda that you learned in Elementary School. Nobody believes this in the Israeli academic system. And the Lebanon war was a straight attack. Nothing had been happening except attacks from Israel to Lebanon for over a year.

http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky_qa.html
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky.html

Please See Noam Chomsky's "Fateful Triangle" for an objective and impartial analysis of recent history in the Middle East.

You're all missing the point -- proving the point in fact. An obvious example of prejudice stares you in the face. All it requires is a simple statement -- "That's prejudicial you jerk" or "Go away, you're not helping" and instead you get caught up in a diversionary tagent.

If you are unwilling to confront the hatred you only allow the hatred to grow. But maybe you don't care -- maybe you want to encourage the hatred -- maybe you agree with all of those statements about jews. We'll never know unless you say something.

Most of the posts here condemn the original post at the top as being anti-Semitic (or bordering on it at least).

Now at least one person above has been calling for genocide against Arabs (Ryan). Are you going to condemn that?

Sure I condemn it and I also condemn the killing of Rwandans and Tibetans and so forth, but that wasn't the point of this thread.

It would have helped if ? provided the link to the original thread on Jerusalem Indymedia. Here it is:

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/08/67856.php

I'm not sure what the reason is for the posting of this article. It appears to be an effort to discredit some pro-Palestinian supporters who contribute on other IMC sites. This same article was also posted in Israel Indymedia. The discussion involved was mainly between the person posting as "?" and another person "qb" who frequently posts thoughtful contributions on Jerusalem Indymedia. qb lives in Northern California. That may be why the article was posted here.

I think the positions that qb took need to be seen in the context of the whole discussion.

Bob N.
Albany

I dtír na ndall, is rí fear an leathsúile.
(Irish Proverb - In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.)

Pronunciation: ee teer nah nahl, iss ree fahr an lah'sooleh

I'm waiting for a response from Rohan. Sorry Ryan. You're obviously disturbed, I suggest you get some help. When you get your very own nuclear bomb or you are elected president I might consider listening to your rants, until then I suggest you see a psychiatrist.

can you please explain how you drop a nuke on just the extremists? What is it, a smart nuke? An extremist-only nuke? I don't get it. Sounds alot more like genocide to me.
I'm not Nessie. you're not a national leader with nukes at his fingertips either; you're just a kid with strange fantasies who plays too many video games. Delusions of grandeur. Get help.

"Here is another of your statements up above. I guess you could reword that replacing "islam" with "judaism" and "islamic extremists" with "jewish extremists" then you can see what kind of statement it is."

How can anyone compare Islamic extremists with Jewish extremists and keep a straight face is beyond me. You haven't seen Jewish extremists crashing airliners into building or executing women in football arenas for looking at a married man. The most Jewish extremists have ever done is to want to live and raise their children in a land that was rightfully captured from their worst enemies. You pro-terror apologists are pathetic.

"I still don't see why I should have to pay for the Zionist mistake of choosing their new state in a conflict hotspot. That's like me saying gee, I want to be free from violence, I think I will go move to the LA ghetto."

I don't see why the US should pay for ANY country in the Middle east, including Egypt and the PA. I'm sure Israel will hold it's own without US money. Israel will than be able to sell it's fine military products to China, India and other countries (1 billion$ surveillance plane deal was canceled due to US pressure). Israel is home to some of the more gifted minds in the world and it cat put them to better use.

"for rescuing you from Hitler and for all the money we have already sent"

Read a book - the US did not fight Germany to save Jews. Actually it didn't give a flying fu@#, and you know it.

rare back and spank me then nexxie honey. that will teach me a lesson for being so silly.
the instant you stepped into your fear and wrapped it around you like a second skin, was the moment you were defeated.
so you fashion a pointy weapon from a stick on the ground and you raise it blindly jabbing at the sky. hoping to puncture anything that might fly by.
a gnat a bug a bird a plane.
this is what i see when i look at you nessie honey. a sad little rip in the textile of sfimc. demanding collective respect and acceptance for your pet rip and its importance.
if you werent such a liar i would congratulate their ability to humor you and support your infermity.

that is true that the US did not fight to save the Jewish people. But the fact is, we still did end up putting a halt to the Holocaust, for whatever reasons.
I'm glad you agree that military subsidies to Israel and to the puppet governments in the Middle East ought to stop immediatly.
" You haven't seen Jewish extremists crashing airliners into building or executing women in football arenas for looking at a married man. "
No, but we have seen Jewish extremists simply bomb buildings with fighter aircraft, and we have seen them kill women for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Shit, we've even seen them attack US military assets (the USS Liberty for one). I don't buy this. Neither you nor the Palestinians hold any kind of moral high ground. You're both behaving poorly to one another with your "eye for an eye" logic. An eye for an eye, and you will all end up blind. One of you - and it will probably have to be the Palestinians - is going to have to have the courage to take the other's anger without succumbing to it themselves, and whosoever does this and also refuses to comply, they will win this conflict.

In the meantime, we'll keep paying Israel's bills so that they are not forced to compromise.

Considering how stupid pro-Israelis sound, you'd think they would be keen on ending their prolonged embarrassment and just keep quiet.

Yet they keep going on and on with their senseless drivel.

By the way, Jewish Extremists and Islamic Extremists are two sides of the same coin. Both are repugnant, murderous, racist, and hateful. Main difference, once again, is that all we get to hear about are the Islamic kind -- thanks to our media.

American Jewish extremists (members of the Jewish Defense Leaque -- JDL) were responsible for bombing an Arab American in Santa Ana, CA in 1985.

http://www.adc.org/press/1999/07jan99.html
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0497/9704067.htm

"No, but we have seen Jewish extremists simply bomb buildings with fighter aircraft"

So Jews have no right to defend themselves? I see, and you worked so hard to camouflage your anti-Semitism, that's a shame.

"and we have seen them kill women for being in the wrong place at the wrong time."

When? Where? What are you talking about?

"Shit, we've even seen them attack US military assets (the USS Liberty for one)."

Besides that one incident (which was the CIA's fault), can you name another?

my comment about fighter aircraft was simply meant to illustrate that the Israelis kill, just like Palestinians, albeit they have more money with which to do it, which is what accounts for the difference in methods. That however does not add any credibility in my mind at all. Whether it is done with a missile or with a homemade bomb, it is all the same thing: killing. Call me anti-semitic if you like, but Jews were using homemade bombs against Nazi tanks in Warsaw and that's perfectly fine with me.

You ask why I say they have killed women for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Well, I know for a fact 3 Palestinian female civilians were shot in broad daylight while wearing Red Cross outfits in Jenin.

Please provide proof that the attack on the USS Liberty in international waters was the 'fault of the CIA'. Sounds like a pretty wild conspiracy theory to me, the CIA getting a foreign nation to attack one of their own warships for no apparent reason. I'd like to hear it.

It's just different methods, ah? So you wouldn't object if Israel will drop one ton bombs on Palestinian civilians with the intent to kill only these civilians, children and elderly man. Would it be the same as attacking Hamas, and Islamic Jihad men?
Indeed, people get hurt because these terrorists hide in highly populated areas, but Israel can not afford sparing their life, since it will cost her with the life of Israeli civilians.

You know for a fact? PLease show reference to support your claim, not from a (pro-)palestinian propaganda site.

The USS Liberty was attacked because the CIA failed to identify it as one of it's own. It was a spook vehicle so they wanted to keep it's location a secret.

re the Red Cross workers, I'll need some time to relocate the article. But I will get back to you on that. I'm pretty sure I got it from B'Tselem. The site seems to be down atm.

re USS Liberty, the attack occurred in broad daylight in international waters with the American flag being flown prominently. The attack occurred after several hours of close surveillance.
http://ussliberty.org/washrp96.txt
http://ussliberty.org/
(those aren't Palestinain URLS btw)

Well I'm afraid I just haven't got time to go through the mountains of atrocities listed at B'Tselem. If you want go have a look; you will see loads and loads of women being killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/index.asp

you can also go to the front page and simply do a search for the string 'civilian killed'

Since the beginning of the current intifada, our Website has published lists containing the names of all individuals (Israeli, Palestinian, and foreign) who were killed during the violence.

The lists include the name of the person killed, whether they were civilians or members of the security forces, their age, place of residence, date and place of death, and who killed them. Where B'Tselem is certain about the circumstances surrounding the death, they are also listed.

B'Tselem emphasizes that the inclusion of a person's name in this list does not mean that the death resulted from a human rights violation or that the deceased did not him/herself violate the rights of others. The lists constitute a comprehensive list of persons who were killed during the al-Aqsa intifada, and should be understood solely on this basis.

Given the scope and complexity of events, B'Tselem is unable to issue a definitive conclusion regarding every incident in which a person was killed. Firstly, the large number of cases makes it impossible for us to conduct an exhaustive investigation into every instance in which persons were killed.

Secondly, even in cases that we investigate, it is not always possible to determine unequivocally the actual circumstances. For example, it is not always clear if the person killed was armed or was near an armed individual, whether IDF soldiers' lives were in jeopardy, and the like.

Furthermore, as an information center, B'Tselem faces the problem of disinformation - supplied by both sides - regarding the circumstances of the deaths of many of the persons killed during the current events. An example is the case in which Palestinians contended that, in October 2000, Israeli civilians tortured and killed a Palestinian civilian. In investigating the matter, we obtained the assistance of pathologists from the United States associated with Physicians for Human Rights (http://www.phrusa.org/research/forensics/israel/Israel_accident_2.html), who found that the person had most likely died in a traffic accident.

In another case, the IDF Spokesperson issued an official statement (http://www.idf.il/english/announcements/2000/november/16.stm) which contended that the soldier who killed a Palestinian civilian in Beit Omer, Hebron District, in November 2000, had shot him in self-defense after the man tried to snatch the soldier's weapon. B'Tselem's thorough research revealed that the claim was false. In fact, the Palestinian was shot following a verbal argument with the soldier. During the argument, the soldier aimed his weapon at the Palestinian's head and pulled the trigger. B'Tselem has not yet received the results of the Military Police's investigation of the matter.

For these reasons, the circumstances of death are not listed in most of the cases. B'Tselem endeavors to investigate these circumstances, and the findings are published, in part, in our reports. Persons interested in studying the complete data in our possession, are welcome to visit our offices, upon prior coordination.

Rohan, where do you get your bull? Is that what they teach you at the synagogue? All the misformation you can get to try and pass off as information and confuse the poor folks who don't know any better? Not too many around who can't figure out you're twisting the truth.
Here's the truth:
1. Israel STARTED the war in 1967, known as the 6 Day War. Israel attacked its neighbors before any of them even rolled one tank or jet off the ground! Israel was so intent to keep the US from knowing what it was doing that Israeli jets and warboats attacked the USS Liberty, a navel reconnaisance ship that happened to be off the coast of Israel and was clearly marked as American. 34 Americans were killed, and 172 wounded (one of the pilots who bombed the ship was an Israeli American, by the way). Check it out, folks, at http://www.ussliberty.com. See what kind of "friend" (really fiend) Israel is to the United States.
2. What "peace accords"? You are truly a loon.
3. Palestinians have been in Palestine since the Biblical times, and have always been called Palestinians. Anyway, that's a big whatever.
4. Israel is most certainly a colonizer and occupier. DUH.
5. Whether or not Palestine was an "autonomous nation" has no bearing whatsever on their inherent rights as the indigenous people of Palestine, far more entitled than the Zionist Jews from Eastern Europe and elsewhere to the land.
6. Arafat never had any more power than acting the Israelis' agent as top policeman in the Occupied Territories, which is not a sovereign, viable country. It's Occupied, Stupid!

Hi Rohan,

Boy, it must be lonely to submit an article to Indymedia that does NOT single-mindedly support all Palestinian factions against Israel, and by extension against the International Jewish Conspiracy :-)

Permit me to lend my own 2 cents on the subject of bigotry as an engine of Pro-Palestinian support.

THE BOTTOM LINE:
The idea that Israel the *cause* of antisemitism is simply backward.
The TRUTH is that antisemitism created Israel.

It is true that Big Lies and Blood Libels have increased antisemitism. It is also true that telling Big Lies about Israel in order to appease the bigots is simply nonproductive. More importantly, it is morally and ethically wrong.

'Combatting the International Zionist Conspiracy' by committing violence against *random* Jews is simple ignorant bigotry. Excusing antisemitism as viable method of 'fighting zionism' has as much basis as excusing the KKK for lynching African-American men in order to defend the sanctity of white womanhood. It's all of the same fabric; simple racist nonsense.

It is impossible to placate bigots by giving in to them. The best method of fighting bigotry is to answer the Big Lies and Blood Libels with TRUTH.

Your fear of bigotry prompts you to engage in Big Lies, e.g.: Israel exists for the benefit of Bush, Cheney, or the others; if Israel disappears, then antisemitism will diminish.

These are pitiful Big Lies, and they demand a TRUTHFUL answer.

You cannot placate bigots by accepting some of their worst lies about Israel. This will only serve to increase antisemitism among the plurality who don't know much about history. If all they hear is the Big Lies, then it will not help if American Jews attempt to 'save' themselves by accepting certain 'politically corrrect' Big Lies (e.g. Israel only exists because it is useful as a US military forward position in the Mid-East). One Big Lie leads to another. When the plurality accepts the Blood Libels along with the other lies, then antisemitic violence will bloom.

For instance, Kevin Spvorak published flat-out lies in Indymedia about Israel massacring ~500 civilians in Jenin in April, 2002 ( http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=22676&group=webcast). This Blood Libel led to a rash of synagogue arson, jew-beatings, and (in Europe) actual murders of random Jews.

Every investigation of Jenin has exposed Spvorak story as a complete falsification. Reports from defacto anti-zionist organizations, such as the UN (http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/) and the Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/05/jenin0503.htm ) conclude that the Israelis told the truth, that 52 Palestinians died, the vast majority were armed combatants who killed 23 Israeli soldiers in fierce fighting, that the Palestinian Jihadi set ~2000 booby-traps and mines in the Jenin Refugee Camp, that there was no Israeli massacre of Palestinian civilians. Skvorak and Indymedia spread a very inflammatory lie, one that soon had a life of its own and spread throughout the world as a Blood Libel.

History is replete with Blood Libels, as as result the Blood Libel phenomenon is well understood. It is used to incite and excuse prejudicial hatred and inspire violence. Documented history records many bigots and their blood libels (e.g. 'they spread the plague', 'they poisoned the well', 'they teach witchcraft', 'they use non-jewish children's blood to make matzah', etc.), which caused awful hate-crimes. Blood libels have led to arson and murder throughout European history. Skvorak's 'Jenin Massacre' blood libel was classically effective.

If Mr. Skvorak's intention was to incite racist violence against Jews, he succeeded. Synagogues and other assorted Jewish Centers were torched throughout Europe in late April and early May, as the accusations of the 'Jenin Massacre' spread, and several European Jews were killed.

Even well intentioned folks who normally avoid bigoted positions ended up excusing this racist violence. Perhaps you remember the argument: assaulting random Jews may halt Israeli's slaughter of Palestinians. What slaughter? Well, look at the 'Jenin Massacre'....

If Hamas, Fatah, and the other other Jihadi ever *DID* win a decisive victory, it is likely many would attempt do exactly what they've repeatedly and openly promised to do: remove every Jew from Palestine, into the sea if necessary. Phillip Roth calls this 'the second Holocaust'. If such crimes ever did come to pass, I have no doubt that indymedia activists would portray the slaughter as a triumph of 21st justice, and history be damned.

So what's the proper course of action in the face of these libels?
Seek Justice and Truth. Do not be afraid of the facts.


Here are the relevant facts (in precis):

Zionism's core value is CIVIL RIGHTS. Any discussion of Israel that ignores the basic CIVIL RIGHTS issues is mortally wounded by ignoring the most important single motivating force behind the Zionist Movement.

Early Christianity was profoundly affected by St. Augustine's formulation that Jews are guilty of deicide (killing Christ), and they compound the guilt by continuing to reject Christianity. Because Jews are not 'reborn' via 'G-d's only begotten son', Jews are condemned to Eternal Damnation. St. Augustine recognizes that it is improper to slaughter or eliminate the Jews. Augustine says they must be humiliated and kept in a depraved state to serve as an object lesson to the Christian community on the fate that befalls people who reject Christ.

The Augustinian formulation gave birth to the Ghetto system and the other atrocities that tormented Jews in Christian Europe. The Jew was, at best, 'property' of the aristocracy or the Church. The Jews never had equal civil rights with Christians in Europe until the Enlightenment. In the late 1700s the Jews began to be 'emancipated'. The last Ghetto was lifted in 1870, i.e. Jews achieved emancipation in Europe at about the same time that African-Americans were emancipated in the U.S. The results of the two emancipations were startling different.

In Europe, fear of the *Emancipated* Jew was apparently greater than fear of the Ghetto Jew. By the late 1800s there were political parties all over Europe that proposed the roll-back of civil rights for Jews, and failing that, ELIMINATION of Jews from Europe.

'Antisemitism' was the name the Christian Jew-Haters gave to their political philosophy of depriving emancipated Jews of their civil rights. This term was always reserved for Jews, never applied to Arabs. The notion that it applies to Arabs occurred after WWII in order to obscure the original meaning, and more importantly to suppress the factual history. Luckily, late 19th century European history is well-documented, and these facts are easy to confirm through independent research.

Many Jewish thinkers in the late 1800s realistically (and prophetically) appraised the situation and concluded that it was only a matter of time before the core group of antisemites (always a small minority) used the well-understood tactics of 'Big Lie' and 'Blood Libel' to motivate the European plurality into a sense of 'justifiable' violence against random Jews in order to overcome the Jewish Menace.

For many Jews, the solution was to go to America, to the country with constitutional Freedom of Religion.

For other 19th Century Jews, the solution was to first recognize that Europeans may one day attempt to violently ELIMINATE the Jews altogether, and the best way to prevent the slaughter of millions of Jews involved the establishment of Jewish Homeland. The Jewish Homeland could defend Jews via diplomacy; failing that it could intervene militarily to combat the bigots, and failing all else it could provide a port of refuge for Jews running from European violence.

THE PRIMARY FORCE BEHIND THE CREATION OF ISRAEL IS ELIMINATIONIST ANTISEMITISM.
ANY DISCUSSION OF ZIONISM THAT SUPPRESSES THIS FACT IS A "BIG LIE" OF OMISSION.

Israel was created because it was obvious in the 1890s that many European movements were converging on an ELIMINATION of European Jewry. This realization was not confined to Jews. It underlay the numerous international attempts to set up a Jewish Homeland in Palestine (in 1917, 1920, 1921, 1937) before it was finally established via UN agreement in 1947.

FACT: When the British offered Uganda as the location of the Jewish Homeland to the Jews in 1901, Herzl (and the other Zionists) rejected the proposal. Why? Because, as Herzl explained at the time, if Zionists were not occupied with attempting to establish their own homeland, they would be working to free Africa from the clutches of Imperialist Europe. In fact, Israelis were active throughout the continent in the '50s and '60s supporting all sorts of liberation movements. Why? Because African Liberation was completely congruent with the civil rights foundation of Zionism.

This history has been suppressed by bigots who portray Israelis as inherently racist, an extension of the libel that Judaism is a white racist sect that attempts to subjugate all the other peoples in the world. The suppression of the contributions of Zionism to African Liberation is another 'Big Lie' of omission, as egregious as the nefarious lies about apartheid within modern Israel.

In fact, there are Jews among all the races of the world. There were lots of Black African Jews (Ghana, Nigeria, Uganda, Ivory Coast, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Ethiopia, etc.), just as there were Chinese Jews in Khai Feng, and Indian Jews (especially in the Malabar Coast).

(In fact, all the people I know with a first name of 'Rohan' are from India. I've never met a Jew with that name. Are you (or your family) from India? Just curioius.)

All these racial groups, along with Arab Jews, and 'Aryan' Jews (from Iran & Afghanistan :-) walk the streets of Israel. Racially, the Jews are as diverse as NYC itself. Is this reality ever featured in Indymedia? How many African-Americans realize there are 1/4 million African-Israelis?

What lessons do we draw? Well, it is not reasonable to think that antisemitism will disappear if we cater to the racist liars. It will not go away if we refrain from identifying bigots as what they are: bigots. This may not be politically correct (e.g. the indymedia crowd get positively violent when they are confronted with their own bigotry) nor comfortable (no one likes to point out someone else's prejudice nor ignorance). Yet at the same time there is really no other moral nor ethical alternative. The discomfort of pursuing and speaking Truth is a prerequisite for the pursuit of Justice.

And let us never forget the primary Jewish Commandmants: Choose Life, Avoid False 'gods', and Pursue Justice.

There really is no other viable alternative.

I really wish you all the best, and hope that you will find the courage to confront these problems with the integrity that will lead you to serenity and peace.

There's so many distortions in your fabrication I can't begin to sort them out. I'll try.

"'Combatting the International Zionist Conspiracy' by committing violence against *random* Jews is simple ignorant bigotry. Excusing antisemitism as viable method of 'fighting zionism' has as much basis as excusing the KKK for lynching African-American men in order to defend the sanctity of white womanhood. It's all of the same fabric; simple racist nonsense."

You've been fooled by trolls intent on a campaign of misinformation intended to put an end to reasonable discussion by polarizing viewpoints. Most posts referring to 'zionazis' or attacking Jews come from far right neo-Nazis intent on destroying this site. Most progressive people feel that racism and ethnic discrimination against anyone is bad, which is why they wonder ... and certainly you must see why they do ... what the Hell is going on in Palestine. Just reverse the situation, pretend that the Jews are Palestinians and vice-versa and you can easily see the reason for concern. American leftists have no desire to 'drive the Jews into the sea' this is not the thrust of their argument. It is simply that no one should be treated differently because of their ethnicity. I do not say Jews are racist, I say people are racist. To say Jews are incapable of racism, is itself, racism. Every human being on the planet has a potential for racism and no one must think their people are better or more just than any others.

I can understand your concerns about antisemitism in the Diaspora. Neo-nazi organizations are puffing themselves up larger than they actually are. Don't be fooled, they want you to believe they are bigger and more mainstream than they really are. They are just freakish marginalized whacko cults, drawing the misfits and reprobates of our society. To give them any credibility well you might as well extend it to Heaven's Gate Cult, Satanists, and people who think Jesus is on a UFO coming to take us all to the Tenth Dimension.

As far as the UN and HRW go, yes they did determine that 500 people were not killed and that this claim was false. People in ethnic conflicts make false claims all the time, including Israel, which portrays so many Israeli casualties in the face of the fact that Palestinian casualties are three times as high or higher. Palestinians too make wild claims. This is because both groups are human and essentially prone to the same mistakes. However: UN and HRW nonetheless condemned Israel for human rights abuses and atrocities in Jenin. They were refused entry to visit and were forced to write the report " without a visit to Jenin or the other Palestinian cities in question". The report itself is not exactly glowing with enthusiasm for Israel's tactics. Some relevant quotes:
"Some journalists reported being fired at by members of IDF."
"There were numerous reports of IDF compelling Palestinian civilians to accompany them during house searches, check suspicious subjects, stand in the line of fire from militants and in other ways protect soldiers from danger."
"documented extensive physical damage to Palestinian Authority civilian property. That damage included the destruction of office equipment, such as computers and photocopying machines, that did not appear to be related to military objectives. While denying that such destruction was systematic, the Israeli Defence Forces have admitted that their personnel engaged in some acts of vandalism"
"humanitarian agencies reported shortages of food and other basic supplies "
"Over 2,800 refugee housing units were damaged and 878 homes were demolished or destroyed during the reporting period, leaving more than 17,000 people homeless"
"Fifty Palestinian schools were damaged by Israeli military action, of which 11 were totally destroyed, 9 were vandalized, 15 used as military outposts and another 15 as mass arrest and detention centres."
"some human rights groups and Palestinian eyewitnesses assert that IDF soldiers did not take all possible measures to avoid hurting civilians, and even used some as human shields."
"There are reports that during this period IDF increased missile strikes from helicopters and the use of bulldozers - including their use to demolish homes and allegedly bury beneath them those who refused to surrender - and engaged in "indiscriminate" firing."
"Human Rights Watch documented 22 civilians among the 52 dead, while Physicians for Human Rights noted that "children under the age of 15 years, women and men over the age of 50 years accounted for nearly 38 per cent of all reported fatalities"."
"IDF appeared to have shifted tactics from house-to-house searches and destruction of the homes of known militants to wider bombardment with tanks and missiles."
"human rights investigations allege that the destruction was both disproportionate and indiscriminate, some houses coming under attack from the bulldozers before their inhabitants had the opportunity to evacuate."
"an extensive use of armoured bulldozers and helicopter gunships on 9 and 10 April, possibly even after the fighting had begun to subside."
"those surrendering included wanted Islamic Jihad and Fatah leaders; others were three injured people and a 13-year-old boy."
"the prolonged delay in obtaining medical attention for the wounded and sick within the camp. As the fighting began to subside, ambulances and medical personnel were prevented by IDF from reaching the wounded within the camp, despite repeated requests to IDF to facilitate access for ambulances"
" senior United Nations officials criticized Israel for its handling of humanitarian access in the aftermath of the battle and, in particular, its refusal to facilitate full and safe access to the affected populations in violation of its obligations under international humanitarian law. "
" IDF ordered the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) to stop its operations and sealed off the hospital. Hospital staff contend that shells and gunfire severely damaged equipment on the top floor "
Your source isn't actually supporting your position very well, at this point. I don't need to tell you that it was equally critical of Palestinians; this we all know and it is not a subject of disagreement. But this is no black and white issue, obviously.

And herein lies the problem for both Jews and Palestinians. Neither is able to take a middle road, neither is able to see their own crimes against the other because both are engaged in a 'blood libel' as you call it, against the other. Each reprisal against the foe brings reprisals from the foe and so on and so on. Well, an eye for an eye and you will all be blind.

On a final note there is something more important than seeking justice and truth, which makes that task so much easier: do not lie. Do not see things only from your viewpoint and ignore that which disagrees with it. Be capable of accepting all the facts, even the uncomfortable ones. No "side" has a monopoly on the truth, for there are two sides to every story. Sometimes both are a bit right, and a bit wrong at the same time.

You are prime example of pro-Palestinian propaganda. Your lies are apparent, but here goes:
1. As Egypt, Syria and Jordan mobilized their forces in spring 1967 for an evident impending attack, Israel launched a preemptive strike. Starting on June 5, the Israeli air force destroyed Egypt's planes on the ground; then Israeli tank columns and infantry overran the Golan Heights, the West Bank of the Jordan River, including the Old City of Jerusalem, Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula. The war was over by June 10, ended by a U.N.-arranged cease-fire

2. "what peace accords"

???
You know, the peace agreements Israel signed with Jordan and Egypt, dah.

3. "Palestinians have been in Palestine since the Biblical times, and have always been called Palestinians. Anyway, that's a big whatever."

Is that so?? please find ANY document pre 1964 that refers to the "Palestinians".

4. "Israel is most certainly a colonizer and occupier. DUH."

Please support your claim. Israel actually RETURNED land to Egypt and Jordan in exchange for peace.

5. " Whether or not Palestine was an "autonomous nation" has no bearing whatsoever on their inherent rights as the indigenous people of Palestine, far more entitled than the Zionist Jews from Eastern Europe and elsewhere to the land"

They lost that right when they objected to the UN's division resolution in 1948, beginning Israel's war of independence.

6. "Arafat never had any more power than acting the Israelis' agent as top policeman in the Occupied Territories, which is not a sovereign, viable country. It's Occupied, Stupid!"

Do you have any factual support for that claim? When did the Palestinians have a sovereignian country in Palestine?

You are no more than a pro-Palestinian thug, and actually... it's the terrorism, stupid.

It's the Occupation, Stupid, as you well know. Israel is a terrorist state, and has been since day one of its regrettable existance, when the UN gave away land that was not theirs to give away to Zionist Jews in the first place. Rohan, you are such a bore, with all the rhetoric they teach you at the synagogue. No one believes you. You go ahead now, keep drinking your own Kool-Aid. See where it gets you. You deserve everything you get and more.

It's the Occupation, Stupid, as you well know. You are such a bore with that rhetoric they teach you to spout at the synagogue. Go ahead, and drink your own Kool-Aid. Everyone else knows that Israel is a terrorist state, and has been since day one of its creation.
Just read http://www.cactus48.com if you want to know the truth, but I know that you don't. You purposefully make up lies to hide the truth.

If so, then please check out http://www.cactus48.com where you'll find "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" writtten by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East. I guess Rohan must go to one of those right-wing synagogues that supports war criminals like Sharon. Too bad.

If so, then please check out http://www.cactus48.com where you'll find "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" writtten by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East. I guess Rohan must go to one of those right-wing synagogues that supports war criminals like Sharon. Too bad.

If so, then please check out http://www.cactus48.com where you'll find "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" writtten by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East. I guess Rohan must go to one of those right-wing synagogues that supports war criminals like Sharon. Too bad.

If so, then please check out http://www.cactus48.com where you'll find "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" writtten by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East. I guess Rohan must go to one of those right-wing synagogues that supports war criminals like Sharon. Too bad.

If so, then please check out http://www.cactus48.com where you'll find "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" writtten by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East. I guess Rohan must go to one of those right-wing synagogues that supports war criminals like Sharon. Too bad.

If so, then please check out http://www.cactus48.com where you'll find "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" writtten by the Jews for Justice in the Middle East. I guess Rohan must go to one of those right-wing synagogues that supports war criminals like Sharon. Too bad.

"Everyone else knows that Israel is a terrorist state,"

Everyone. Really? I wasn't aware of that. We anarchists are so fucking stupid and insignificant. Everyone else knows. Imagine that. And we've been acting as though they didn't.

If you're interested in the truth, see what cactus48 says about these years.

They don't say anything at all, do they.

Jews and Arabs lived together in peace for over fourty years during and then somethin happened in 1920, 1921 and 1929?

What are they hiding?

Are you interested in the truth?

Are you just going to leave us with a big cliffhanger like 1920, 1921, 1929? Or are you going to provide some links or a little more info so we can do a Google-Search to check out whatever it is you are trying to say?

Or is this the usual Zionist tactic of trying to obsure, obfuscate, obliterate and otherwise deny and deflect from the truth about apartheid, racist, immoral Israel?

Poor "Joy" or "s." or "Ahmed" or whatever... he is just too stupid to see where his hateful rhetoric has got him and the Palestinians. Actually it's the Palestinians who get what they deserve.

btw: spamming is rude.

It's the terrorism stupid.

IMC-PALESTINE HAS BEEN NAZI-WEB
by mummeli • Friday August 30, 2002 at 04:34 PM


IMC-PALESTINE HAS BEEN FLOODED BY NAZI-POST, BUT MODERATOR CALLUNA NEVER DELETE IT



IMC-Palestine site has been flooded by racist
fake-leftists
----------------------------------------------------------------

.

IMC-Palestine site has been flooded by racist fake-leftist "antiZionist"


Here is one exemple:

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/04/8513_comment.php#59975


http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/07/59577_comment.php#59607

anti-semite
by anti-semite  Wednesday July 17, 2002 at 09:40 AM

in that case, I like the word, and i like to be anti-semite. Jews deserve
it.
Thank you.


http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/06/54697_comment.php#54711

Does not matter
by whiner  Saturday June 29, 2002 at 05:28 PM


Who cares, in the end you kikes get hated by everyone anyway, and this is
due to YOUR way of going about your fucking "biznesses", i.e. without any
regard for any other human being, as if you and only you had the right to
all the goodies. But, no no no...


http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/06/53472_comment.php#54724

Whiners ?
by outside the whale  Thursday June 27, 2002 at 08:51 PM

The only pussy whiners I know are Jews.



http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/07/57082_comment.php#67259

(quote)
Time is running short
by Time is running short  Friday August 16, 2002 at 06:47 AM

The Jews' time is running short, and they know it. They're weaker then they've
ever been before, and it is scaring the hell out of them.



http://www.jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/08/66373_comment.php#67017


by SAVE AMERICAN LIVES - DUMP THE KIKES  Saturday August 17, 2002 at 10:57
AM
............end of quote...............

.
Some paranoid visitors said that " Anti-jewish spam is Probably posted by
a Zionist agent posting as an anti-semitic racist. as
Zionists want to
deflect attention away from the real issues of the conflict...". This is
a new anti-jewish conspiracy theory, of course.

THE SAME PERSONS WHO POST TYPICALLY NAZI PROPAGANDA, also post very PC and
'progressive' pro-Palestinian messages which would never serve the Zionist agenda. .
...........................
Some mad WASP-supremacist as Bob N. declare that
posting as "Dump the k-s" is just on "Israel criticism.".
If you are going to defend racists on your side, Bob N., then you are a racist .






Article above