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Why Indymedia France had to close
One of the administrators of Indymedia Belgium and Indymedia France published on the list [indy-France-EDITO] of June which is use to the coordination of the editorial team a speak openly revisionist. This text published on the 7/06/02 provoked the departure of three persons Massalia, Astala and Tatahari of the editorial team, the other Indymedia France's members, Belgium and Europe which expressed themselves, supported globally this (revisionist) administrator whose nickname is Red Kitten.
This very timely story appeared on DC Indymedia....
Trivialize of the Nazism on Indy Belgium and France
by Mathias 11:11am Thu Sep 5 '02
e212fr [at] yahoo.fr
Defends the Palestine, attacks the Sharon government, the methods of the army is an things. That this was an occasion for the racists and the anti-semites to express themself under the cover of a pro-Palestinian label is another things.
Trivialize of the Nazism on Indy Belgium and France*
... the depreciation is going to splash everything, it is going to damage all the activists and the fights who will have expressed themselves on Indymedia in particular it harms the just Palestinian cause which certain number of administrators so believes to defend.
A revisionist in Indymedia Belgique
One of the administrators of Indymedia Belgium and Indymedia France published on the list [indy-France-EDITO] of June which is use to the coordination of the editorial team a speak openly revisionist. This text published on the 7/06/02 provoked the departure of three persons Massalia, Astala and Tatahari of the editorial team, the other Indymedia France's members, Belgium and Europe which expressed themselves, supported globally this (revisionist) administrator whose nickname is Red Kitten.
For Red Kitten: " extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive... they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. " (To see text joined below).
A big part of the administrators who expressed themselves, supports and show they solidarity whith Red Kitten. Indymedia seems to fall in a trap: the support of a companion who (in the best) is delirious, then the coming together with those who support this companion, as the Internet user " Do ", "Dominique", " himalove "; (look at:http://www.france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20492&group=webcast) who uses in their publications texts of people for a long time crossed to the fascist enemy (in France, Faurisson and Garaudy who are close ideologically to the National Front).
If this trap closes, the depreciation is going to splash everything, it is going to damage all the activists and the ideals expressed themselves on Indymedia in particular it harms the just Palestinian cause which certain number of administrators so believes to defend.
This alert on the revisionist "drift" of one of Indymedia's team members was passed on on various Indymedia mailing lists. So I join the various answers of condemnation or support.
The author of the revisionist comments should be thrown out of the Indymedia team, his comments should be denied clearly and publicly. Everything should be made to prevent that Indymedia Belgium falls under the influence of revisionists.
That does not seem to start to be done.
Mathias
One of the Founder members of france.indymedia.org
The revisionist text:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000161.html
Indy-France-EDITO ] Article on israeliens concentration camps
Red kitten imc-france-edito at lists.indymedia.org
Fri, 07 Jun on 2002 16:20:07 0700
On the article (comparison of concentration camps Israelian / German) I find the process null, but it is rather logical: the camps of the Nazis look like whatever camps builds with rationalism, whatever of more normal that those of Israel are similar? It does not moreover indicate big thing...
Israel = Nazis?
We always compares the big criminals to the Nazis, who in our collective mythology represents the absolute evil on earth... It is a little bit easy, but OK. Then why not to do it with the Israely governments ? Because they are Jewish! Oh OK? And however, nobody never rebelled against the fact of comparing Stalin to Hitler, whereas Soviet suffered largely more from the Nazis than the Jews (for the sordid figures: 6.000.000 of Jews deaths, 20.000.000 of Soviet)
There is camps and camps...
In addition I allowed me to point out the difference between concentration camps and extermination camps. Most of the camps were concentration camps, that mean regrouping. Their function was especially the maximal exploitation of the captives in the profis of the war economy and of the German middle-class. Extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. The confusion between the two was accurately maintained to mask the economic dimension of the camps: they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most height
level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. This side was voluntarily masked to not reveal the role of the capitalism in the massacre, but to put all the responsibility to the irrational hate (it's quite more convenient)
ChEErz
///R e d. k i t t e n///
The article to which Red Kitten makes reference
Our detention camps are similar to German concentration camps
By KA
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20338&group=webcast
Trivialize the Nazism
By Laurent 12:09pm Mon Jun 10 ' 02 (Modified one 12:01pm Tue Jun 11 ' 02)
http://www.france.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=20521&group=webcast
Being seen on indy-France-EDITO
Article on israelians concentration camps
On the 8/06/02, red kitten has ecrit:
" On the article (comparison of concentration camps Israelian / German) I find the process null, but it is rather logical: the camps of the Nazis look like whatever camps builds with rationalism, whatever of more normal that those of Israel are similar? It does not moreover indicate big thing... "
Why do not to compare with the other camps then. As the one of Sangate, the one that the americains have in Cuba...
This comparison does not aim to compare the camps, but the processes.
" Israel = Nazis?
We always compares the big criminals to the Nazis, who in our collective mythology represents the absolute evil on earth... It is a little bit easy, but OK. Then why not to do it with the Israely governments ? Because they are Jewish! Oh OK? And however, nobody never rebelled against the fact of comparing Stalin to Hitler"
You make a mistake, in the antifascist fight, we are numerous to beat against this mixture (and a lot of with the Nazis), because it is extremely important, it plays totally in against us. One of the reasons, especially uses by the extreme-right-hand side, to compare staline to hitler, is not to obtain the same refusal of staline and hitler, but on the contrary, to obtain the same impunity for hitler (and of the Nazis) than for Stalin (I shall not discuss if it's just or not).
" whereas Soviet suffered largely more from the Nazis than the Jews (for the sordid figures: 6.000.000 of Jews deaths, 20.000.000 of Soviet) "
I think that you go on one hillside very slippery. It's again exactly the same argument uses by the extreme-right-hand side. The war does deaths, and it is true that we forgets a little bit fast the 20 millions of soviet died at the moment where we receives Bush for the celebration of the landing in Normandy.
But the mechanics of extermination systematics, industrial, - the final solution, organized by the Nazis has nothing of similar . It has not to compare the number of what is not comparable. The final solution is the most abominable thing which was thought, as regular as clockwork, in our history. It is what give a particular character to the shoa.
And the question of the figure is a false question.
"There is camps and camps...
In addition I allowed me to point out the difference between concentration camps and extermination camps. Most of the camps were concentration camps, that mean regrouping. Their function was especially the maximal exploitation of the captives in the profis of the war economy and of the German middle-class. Extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. The confusion between the two was accurately maintained to mask the economic dimension of the camps: they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. This side was voluntarily masked to not reveal the role of the capitalism in the massacre, but to put all the responsibility to the irrational hate (it's quite more convenient)"
The abomination Nazi went effectively at the end of the capitalist logic, by making soaps, clipboards... with men, women and children.
There is nothing of such in Israel. Once again, we can't agree to compare what is not comparable.
It is for that I would join Massalia.
" I do not know if we have to see in these answers some "angélisme", some naivety or the other thing. For me, all this makes me jump up and roar. "
All these false arguments are against the Palestinian cause and make the games of ALL the extremists: they trivialize the Nazism; they show the ignorance on the subject (Nazism) of the one that spreads them, and consequently, he risks to not be listening on the problem of the Palestinian.
I don't understand why it is necessary always to add excess to support the Palestinian people. The reality, all the reality, is already sufficient for that. These people aren't they so not convinced of the correctness of the fight of the Palestinian that they are obliged to used these doubtful comparisons.
To beat since a lot of time against the extreme right ideas and the négationisme, I would say carefree that this text is an anti-semitic dirty. To avoid attacks, he hides by using the word Zionism, but indeed to say Jew. The Jews behind the big capital, it's reminder me of things.
We are anti-capitalist, and to fall into the trap from this fellow me made me concerns. The great man of the fight against the muslim after the 11 september is not a Jew, it is G. Bush.
That one uses the palestinian cause to pour its anti-semitic hate makes me pile. Let us not fall into the trap. The group unite-radical (GUD)** supports the Palestinian cause not because they have something to make with but because it allows them to attack the Jews.
Personally I fights the capitalists and the extreme right-hand side that she is French, American, israelian, that she is Christian, Jewish or Moslim. I recognize as friends refuzniks (objectors of consciousness) who are Jewish israelians (being I the same objector).
Defends the Palestine, attacks the Sharon government, the methods of the army and the supports in France to these fascists is an things. That this was an occasion for the racists and the anti-semites to express themself under the cover of a pro-Palestinian label is another things in which I don't want to participate.
Astala imc-france-edito at lists.indymedia.org
Sat, 08 Jun on 2002 12:14:52 0200
Red Kitten the administrator concerned " persists and signs " directly on the alert launched on Monday , June 10 as follows:
Red kitten persists and signs
By red kitten 1:21am Mon Jun 10 ' 02
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20492&group=webcast
Redkitten [at] indymedia.be
I confirm the sentence " extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. " And I waits that some one explains to me in what it would be revisionist.
-----
1- The concentration camps (generaly of work) and extermination camps are not the same thing.
Concentration camps serve to concentrating a population given in a small space generaly accompanied with a wild economic exploitation.
An extermination camp aims at exterminating by some means a population given.
The difference adorned me clearly, even if in the practice, both concepts can be coexisting or additional.
-----
2- The extermination camps are unproductive in the sense that, contrary to the labour camps, they produce nothing, and on the contrary, need some contribution of workforce, energy and material which produces nothing (but destroys the life)
While one explains to me in what this is revisionist, while I don't speak about their existence, or, when and in which quantity.
-----
3- The purpose of this demonstration was to clarify an used terminology (too often) and everywhere, and also to remember the economic dimension of the Nazi concentration camps.
Refugee camps in the Europe of Schengen, for example, are concentration camps (because there locks a type of population) but are not extermination camps.
-----
Finally, this method to display the internal problems of a collective Indymedia, by avoiding the dialogue and explaining publicly arguments in a one-sided way seem to me very remote from Indymedia's principles...
[ And as for my pseudo, no problem, name, first name, address and registry office known for the editorial staff, it is noway a protection]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The administrators who left the Indymedia France team:
---> Tatahari: departure of indymedia because of the revisionimus
" Noticing that in the name of the freedom of expression (let say, let do, the Internet user will make the sort out) indymedia France tolerates within the editorial team a revisionist individual and favors the broadcasting of texts.... "
Continuation:
http://www.france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20541&group=webcast
---> Astala: Article on israelians concentration camps
"... That one uses the palestiniene cause to pour its anti-semitic hate makes me pile. Don't let us fall into the trap. The group unite-radical (GUD) supports the Palestinian cause not because they have something to make with but because it allows them to attack the Jews. Personally I fights the capitalists and the extreme right-hand side that she is French, American, israelian, that she is Christian, Jewish or Moslim. ... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000168.html
---> Massalia: Article on concentration camps//Desolation
"... As for me this small discussion brings me to a point of not return, it is the limit which I can not exceed if the majority of the persons here think in this way. I clarify that I am of Arabic origin, to avoid any misunderstanding on my last messages... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000162.html
The administrators who support Red Kitten:
---> Wilfrid (France Indy): Fw - enchanted
"... At first, I see effectively nothing of revisionist in the text of red Kitten... "
Continuation(suite):
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france/2002-June/003354.html
---> Gilles Klein (France Indy): [dh - rezo] revisionists in France Indymedia?
" A friend, an antifascist activist, intervened in the internal mailing list of indymedia to express himself by saying... ...What I think of it: the message ((which accuses Red Kitten of being a revisionist)) which you quote is only a dirty and nauseous charge. "
Continuation:
http://dh-rezo.org/archive_dh-rezo.html?body=1919&forum=archive_dh-rezo
---> Gustave Rozoy (France Indy) Re - [imc Revisionist France within France Ind
"... It seems to me really exessif to accuse this text of revisionismus....
At least, that does not justify to publish on-line a "denial", irrelevant besides... "
Continuation(suite):
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france/2002-June/003353.html
---> Arno (France Indy) (the 11-th comments) on the text: Censorship on indymedia by Cathar
" Anti-semitic, Fascist... Mathias, you were too far. If some friends on indy (I think to Gilles and my pal red kitten), in a concerns of respect, but especially to advance, to create and to impulse dynamics (in brief to contribute to the free media), tolerates your muck, it's not the same for me... "
Continuation:
Http://france.indymedia.org / front.php3? Article_id =...
And also: " the revisionism and indymedia " by arno 6:31pm Wed Jun 26 ' 02 (Modified one 4:44am Sat Jun 29 ' 02)
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=22124
---> Yannic Meerbergen (France and Belgium Indy): Tatahari, allocates indymedia because of the revisionismus
"... RedKitten, a follower of Garaudy and Faurisson? Inquire little before saying bullshit... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000193.html
Yannic Meerbergen is also a problem, look at:
http://belgium.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=27645
---> Han (Belgium Indy): If you want to read the artickle
" The allegations towards Red Kitten are totally wrong"
Suite (1er commentaire) sur:
http://belgium.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=25780&group=webcast
---> Bart (Belgium Indy): Re - Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...The mail you send in from Red Kitten isn't negationist..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000863.html
---> Blicero (Italia Indy): Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...I haven't followed the france imc situation but I can totally be sure of the fact that redkitten is neither a revisionist nor a third positionist..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000862.html
---> Maulwurf (Germany indy): Re - Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...i totaly agree and support to bart's opinion..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000864.html
*Indy France is at present closed, because an organization against the racism (SOS Racisme) threatened it to raise a complaint.
**GUD: a group of Fascists in France
Continuation of the information in French on: membres.lycos.fr/razor22
Trivialize of the Nazism on Indy Belgium and France
by Mathias 11:11am Thu Sep 5 '02
e212fr [at] yahoo.fr
Defends the Palestine, attacks the Sharon government, the methods of the army is an things. That this was an occasion for the racists and the anti-semites to express themself under the cover of a pro-Palestinian label is another things.
Trivialize of the Nazism on Indy Belgium and France*
... the depreciation is going to splash everything, it is going to damage all the activists and the fights who will have expressed themselves on Indymedia in particular it harms the just Palestinian cause which certain number of administrators so believes to defend.
A revisionist in Indymedia Belgique
One of the administrators of Indymedia Belgium and Indymedia France published on the list [indy-France-EDITO] of June which is use to the coordination of the editorial team a speak openly revisionist. This text published on the 7/06/02 provoked the departure of three persons Massalia, Astala and Tatahari of the editorial team, the other Indymedia France's members, Belgium and Europe which expressed themselves, supported globally this (revisionist) administrator whose nickname is Red Kitten.
For Red Kitten: " extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive... they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. " (To see text joined below).
A big part of the administrators who expressed themselves, supports and show they solidarity whith Red Kitten. Indymedia seems to fall in a trap: the support of a companion who (in the best) is delirious, then the coming together with those who support this companion, as the Internet user " Do ", "Dominique", " himalove "; (look at:http://www.france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20492&group=webcast) who uses in their publications texts of people for a long time crossed to the fascist enemy (in France, Faurisson and Garaudy who are close ideologically to the National Front).
If this trap closes, the depreciation is going to splash everything, it is going to damage all the activists and the ideals expressed themselves on Indymedia in particular it harms the just Palestinian cause which certain number of administrators so believes to defend.
This alert on the revisionist "drift" of one of Indymedia's team members was passed on on various Indymedia mailing lists. So I join the various answers of condemnation or support.
The author of the revisionist comments should be thrown out of the Indymedia team, his comments should be denied clearly and publicly. Everything should be made to prevent that Indymedia Belgium falls under the influence of revisionists.
That does not seem to start to be done.
Mathias
One of the Founder members of france.indymedia.org
The revisionist text:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000161.html
Indy-France-EDITO ] Article on israeliens concentration camps
Red kitten imc-france-edito at lists.indymedia.org
Fri, 07 Jun on 2002 16:20:07 0700
On the article (comparison of concentration camps Israelian / German) I find the process null, but it is rather logical: the camps of the Nazis look like whatever camps builds with rationalism, whatever of more normal that those of Israel are similar? It does not moreover indicate big thing...
Israel = Nazis?
We always compares the big criminals to the Nazis, who in our collective mythology represents the absolute evil on earth... It is a little bit easy, but OK. Then why not to do it with the Israely governments ? Because they are Jewish! Oh OK? And however, nobody never rebelled against the fact of comparing Stalin to Hitler, whereas Soviet suffered largely more from the Nazis than the Jews (for the sordid figures: 6.000.000 of Jews deaths, 20.000.000 of Soviet)
There is camps and camps...
In addition I allowed me to point out the difference between concentration camps and extermination camps. Most of the camps were concentration camps, that mean regrouping. Their function was especially the maximal exploitation of the captives in the profis of the war economy and of the German middle-class. Extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. The confusion between the two was accurately maintained to mask the economic dimension of the camps: they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most height
level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. This side was voluntarily masked to not reveal the role of the capitalism in the massacre, but to put all the responsibility to the irrational hate (it's quite more convenient)
ChEErz
///R e d. k i t t e n///
The article to which Red Kitten makes reference
Our detention camps are similar to German concentration camps
By KA
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20338&group=webcast
Trivialize the Nazism
By Laurent 12:09pm Mon Jun 10 ' 02 (Modified one 12:01pm Tue Jun 11 ' 02)
http://www.france.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=20521&group=webcast
Being seen on indy-France-EDITO
Article on israelians concentration camps
On the 8/06/02, red kitten has ecrit:
" On the article (comparison of concentration camps Israelian / German) I find the process null, but it is rather logical: the camps of the Nazis look like whatever camps builds with rationalism, whatever of more normal that those of Israel are similar? It does not moreover indicate big thing... "
Why do not to compare with the other camps then. As the one of Sangate, the one that the americains have in Cuba...
This comparison does not aim to compare the camps, but the processes.
" Israel = Nazis?
We always compares the big criminals to the Nazis, who in our collective mythology represents the absolute evil on earth... It is a little bit easy, but OK. Then why not to do it with the Israely governments ? Because they are Jewish! Oh OK? And however, nobody never rebelled against the fact of comparing Stalin to Hitler"
You make a mistake, in the antifascist fight, we are numerous to beat against this mixture (and a lot of with the Nazis), because it is extremely important, it plays totally in against us. One of the reasons, especially uses by the extreme-right-hand side, to compare staline to hitler, is not to obtain the same refusal of staline and hitler, but on the contrary, to obtain the same impunity for hitler (and of the Nazis) than for Stalin (I shall not discuss if it's just or not).
" whereas Soviet suffered largely more from the Nazis than the Jews (for the sordid figures: 6.000.000 of Jews deaths, 20.000.000 of Soviet) "
I think that you go on one hillside very slippery. It's again exactly the same argument uses by the extreme-right-hand side. The war does deaths, and it is true that we forgets a little bit fast the 20 millions of soviet died at the moment where we receives Bush for the celebration of the landing in Normandy.
But the mechanics of extermination systematics, industrial, - the final solution, organized by the Nazis has nothing of similar . It has not to compare the number of what is not comparable. The final solution is the most abominable thing which was thought, as regular as clockwork, in our history. It is what give a particular character to the shoa.
And the question of the figure is a false question.
"There is camps and camps...
In addition I allowed me to point out the difference between concentration camps and extermination camps. Most of the camps were concentration camps, that mean regrouping. Their function was especially the maximal exploitation of the captives in the profis of the war economy and of the German middle-class. Extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. The confusion between the two was accurately maintained to mask the economic dimension of the camps: they were not created by strict racist madness, but are mainly the most level of exploitation of human being by the middle-class and the imperialism. This side was voluntarily masked to not reveal the role of the capitalism in the massacre, but to put all the responsibility to the irrational hate (it's quite more convenient)"
The abomination Nazi went effectively at the end of the capitalist logic, by making soaps, clipboards... with men, women and children.
There is nothing of such in Israel. Once again, we can't agree to compare what is not comparable.
It is for that I would join Massalia.
" I do not know if we have to see in these answers some "angélisme", some naivety or the other thing. For me, all this makes me jump up and roar. "
All these false arguments are against the Palestinian cause and make the games of ALL the extremists: they trivialize the Nazism; they show the ignorance on the subject (Nazism) of the one that spreads them, and consequently, he risks to not be listening on the problem of the Palestinian.
I don't understand why it is necessary always to add excess to support the Palestinian people. The reality, all the reality, is already sufficient for that. These people aren't they so not convinced of the correctness of the fight of the Palestinian that they are obliged to used these doubtful comparisons.
To beat since a lot of time against the extreme right ideas and the négationisme, I would say carefree that this text is an anti-semitic dirty. To avoid attacks, he hides by using the word Zionism, but indeed to say Jew. The Jews behind the big capital, it's reminder me of things.
We are anti-capitalist, and to fall into the trap from this fellow me made me concerns. The great man of the fight against the muslim after the 11 september is not a Jew, it is G. Bush.
That one uses the palestinian cause to pour its anti-semitic hate makes me pile. Let us not fall into the trap. The group unite-radical (GUD)** supports the Palestinian cause not because they have something to make with but because it allows them to attack the Jews.
Personally I fights the capitalists and the extreme right-hand side that she is French, American, israelian, that she is Christian, Jewish or Moslim. I recognize as friends refuzniks (objectors of consciousness) who are Jewish israelians (being I the same objector).
Defends the Palestine, attacks the Sharon government, the methods of the army and the supports in France to these fascists is an things. That this was an occasion for the racists and the anti-semites to express themself under the cover of a pro-Palestinian label is another things in which I don't want to participate.
Astala imc-france-edito at lists.indymedia.org
Sat, 08 Jun on 2002 12:14:52 0200
Red Kitten the administrator concerned " persists and signs " directly on the alert launched on Monday , June 10 as follows:
Red kitten persists and signs
By red kitten 1:21am Mon Jun 10 ' 02
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20492&group=webcast
Redkitten [at] indymedia.be
I confirm the sentence " extermination camps only were provided with gas chambers, but were rather unproductive. " And I waits that some one explains to me in what it would be revisionist.
-----
1- The concentration camps (generaly of work) and extermination camps are not the same thing.
Concentration camps serve to concentrating a population given in a small space generaly accompanied with a wild economic exploitation.
An extermination camp aims at exterminating by some means a population given.
The difference adorned me clearly, even if in the practice, both concepts can be coexisting or additional.
-----
2- The extermination camps are unproductive in the sense that, contrary to the labour camps, they produce nothing, and on the contrary, need some contribution of workforce, energy and material which produces nothing (but destroys the life)
While one explains to me in what this is revisionist, while I don't speak about their existence, or, when and in which quantity.
-----
3- The purpose of this demonstration was to clarify an used terminology (too often) and everywhere, and also to remember the economic dimension of the Nazi concentration camps.
Refugee camps in the Europe of Schengen, for example, are concentration camps (because there locks a type of population) but are not extermination camps.
-----
Finally, this method to display the internal problems of a collective Indymedia, by avoiding the dialogue and explaining publicly arguments in a one-sided way seem to me very remote from Indymedia's principles...
[ And as for my pseudo, no problem, name, first name, address and registry office known for the editorial staff, it is noway a protection]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The administrators who left the Indymedia France team:
---> Tatahari: departure of indymedia because of the revisionimus
" Noticing that in the name of the freedom of expression (let say, let do, the Internet user will make the sort out) indymedia France tolerates within the editorial team a revisionist individual and favors the broadcasting of texts.... "
Continuation:
http://www.france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=20541&group=webcast
---> Astala: Article on israelians concentration camps
"... That one uses the palestiniene cause to pour its anti-semitic hate makes me pile. Don't let us fall into the trap. The group unite-radical (GUD) supports the Palestinian cause not because they have something to make with but because it allows them to attack the Jews. Personally I fights the capitalists and the extreme right-hand side that she is French, American, israelian, that she is Christian, Jewish or Moslim. ... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000168.html
---> Massalia: Article on concentration camps//Desolation
"... As for me this small discussion brings me to a point of not return, it is the limit which I can not exceed if the majority of the persons here think in this way. I clarify that I am of Arabic origin, to avoid any misunderstanding on my last messages... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000162.html
The administrators who support Red Kitten:
---> Wilfrid (France Indy): Fw - enchanted
"... At first, I see effectively nothing of revisionist in the text of red Kitten... "
Continuation(suite):
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france/2002-June/003354.html
---> Gilles Klein (France Indy): [dh - rezo] revisionists in France Indymedia?
" A friend, an antifascist activist, intervened in the internal mailing list of indymedia to express himself by saying... ...What I think of it: the message ((which accuses Red Kitten of being a revisionist)) which you quote is only a dirty and nauseous charge. "
Continuation:
http://dh-rezo.org/archive_dh-rezo.html?body=1919&forum=archive_dh-rezo
---> Gustave Rozoy (France Indy) Re - [imc Revisionist France within France Ind
"... It seems to me really exessif to accuse this text of revisionismus....
At least, that does not justify to publish on-line a "denial", irrelevant besides... "
Continuation(suite):
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france/2002-June/003353.html
---> Arno (France Indy) (the 11-th comments) on the text: Censorship on indymedia by Cathar
" Anti-semitic, Fascist... Mathias, you were too far. If some friends on indy (I think to Gilles and my pal red kitten), in a concerns of respect, but especially to advance, to create and to impulse dynamics (in brief to contribute to the free media), tolerates your muck, it's not the same for me... "
Continuation:
Http://france.indymedia.org / front.php3? Article_id =...
And also: " the revisionism and indymedia " by arno 6:31pm Wed Jun 26 ' 02 (Modified one 4:44am Sat Jun 29 ' 02)
http://france.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=22124
---> Yannic Meerbergen (France and Belgium Indy): Tatahari, allocates indymedia because of the revisionismus
"... RedKitten, a follower of Garaudy and Faurisson? Inquire little before saying bullshit... "
Continuation:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-france-edito/2002-June/000193.html
Yannic Meerbergen is also a problem, look at:
http://belgium.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=27645
---> Han (Belgium Indy): If you want to read the artickle
" The allegations towards Red Kitten are totally wrong"
Suite (1er commentaire) sur:
http://belgium.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=25780&group=webcast
---> Bart (Belgium Indy): Re - Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...The mail you send in from Red Kitten isn't negationist..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000863.html
---> Blicero (Italia Indy): Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...I haven't followed the france imc situation but I can totally be sure of the fact that redkitten is neither a revisionist nor a third positionist..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000862.html
---> Maulwurf (Germany indy): Re - Revisionist in France Indymedia
"...i totaly agree and support to bart's opinion..."
Suite:
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-europe/2002-June/000864.html
*Indy France is at present closed, because an organization against the racism (SOS Racisme) threatened it to raise a complaint.
**GUD: a group of Fascists in France
Continuation of the information in French on: membres.lycos.fr/razor22
For more information:
http://dc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article...
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Holocaust Deniers - http://www.crank.net/holocaust.html
One of the key problems is allowing myths and distortions about the Holocaust to have slipped in, sufficient to allow attacks by deniers. Certain myths need to be recognized and revamped into a new understanding of these atrocities such as: that Jews were not the only victims nor even the first victims (dissident political groups were first, to quell opposition before they started in on the Jews); that it was not a unique occurence but rather a unique method (industrialized); that not only German Nazis were involved but Austrian, Polish, and many other E. European nationalities; that neither Britain nor the US was very quick to condemn the atrocities and certainly did not go to war with Germany over the camps; that Russians also operated camps; and last but certainly not least that before the war German people were very liberal and sophisticated culturally and were likely the last people in Europe to do such a thing, but they ended up doing it anyway, because it could happen anywhere, anytime, by anybody, to anybody. The Germans felt like a nation hated by the world because of WW1 and this is what the Nazis played on in order to produce a generation of psychopaths. The impulse was not there naturally, it was artificially manufactured. Likely it could happen in any industrialized nation which felt globally isolated undeservingly.
These gaps need to be sealed or the revisionists will utilize them to advance their twisted agenda. In the meantime we must simply ignore them and go about a greater program of education about the Holocaust, a more complex understanding with no more simplifications.
When Jewish life is at stake do you expect the victims to differentiate between the political affiliations of our supporters?
Should I prefer leftist agenda support over conservative neo-fascist one?
Would I be stupid to never accept those who harbor opposite views to my own...
Non- Jewish Palestinians have an obligation to accept all support coming their way while Jews must stop interfering with others internal affairs!
Specifically because Jews are the perpetual cause of the Palestinians humaniterian crisis.
What do you know about the Croatians?
I saw a documentary once on TV which said they had fooled western media into attacking the Serbs during the Bosnian conflict. It seemed pretty sound.
Of course! If any oppressed group, Palestinian, Jewish, Irish, Black whatever attaches itself to a genocidal racist movement such as say the National Alliance for short term gain they will be disappointed. First their cause will suffer discreditation, and possibly fail as a result. Second they have no guarantee that such a movement will not simply turn on them afterward. So yes you must be selective in your support, certainly. Look at the Afghans who threw in with the Americans against the Soviets, look where that got them. Caution is in order.
There was a town where Western media reported the Serbs were destroying all the buildings all very historic buildings, for instance. The way it was presented was designed to cause outrage. But you didn't actually see any of these buildings being destroyed.
In the documentary they went to the town.
Untouched. Pristine, in fact.
All they could find was 3 bullet holes in a modern brick wall on the side of a grocer's shop.
I'm wishing I had paid attention to the producer of that documentary it was very good.
I was somewhat politically educated at the time but not enough. The propaganda campaign was sophisticated to say the least. Connections were made between the Serbs and the Nazis in the forties; ethnic cleansing charges were made. They destroyed small historic villages, the media said.
I remember thinking yes, we should go blast those fascist assholes.
Early into the war - and remember this was a time before the Internet was in common usage so it was hard to really verify things or obtain alternate information - I started to get an uneasy feeling. I found that not only was the media seemingly confusing, I found it seemed to be taunting everyone with the lack of information. It droned on and on about how 'confusing' the situation was, which got me VERY suspicious. I mean nothing should be too confusing for a giant corporation which deals in information on a daily basis, it should be fairly easy for them to get to the facts, really.
Then the civilian casualties started. You know - "we thought the tractor was a tank" that sort of thing. My suspicions increased.
But I was never able to get an accurate picture of what really happened until I saw that documentary. It did not withhold such vast amounts of information as the media had, which caused me to be somewhat less skeptical. It was the first time I had a sense I wasn't being lied to about the whole thing.
Since then there have been more pressing issues so I never really dug too far into the issue.
In all I think my experience was typical of alot of leftists. I can remember having conversations where we deplored all the supposed crimes of the Serbs.
I think this experience I had makes a great case for the need for independant media.
What do you mean by "it was looking glass"? I'm not sure I get the analogy.
It was very interesting in that at the end, the author went into details of the legal aftermath of the extermination camps and the war. In it he claimed that very few of those guards and officers at the camps who were not German - and there were many - were subject to any sort of trial or penalties. Thus alot of them carried on as officials within their respective governments after the war was over, a few even serving as high-ranking members of the police and military. I no longer have that book so I can't verify this other than that I know I read it. You wouldn't happen to have any sources on that would you?
To nessie, why don't you shut the fuck up about "Blowback"? Do you think no one else in the world beside you has ever heard of this ridiculous discredited book? You use the word "blowback" way too much. you think you're some kind of genius who's privy to information that no one else could possibly know about. We've all heard dave emory, and his drugged-up quotations from "Blowback", so why do you keep running your moldy old mouth about it, as if no one had ever heard about it before.
I have an idea for you nessie, since you're such a washed-up old welfare-cheating loser: Since capitlaist corporations are evil, and since your underwear is manufactured by an evil capitalist corporation, why don't you start an enterprise called "The Berkeley Underwear Collective". You could manufacture the underwear from organic unbleached Guatemalan cotton that was harvested by virgins. Your motto could be "One Size Fits All".
You've finally found your calling nessie. And when your 'collective" inevitably fails, as ALL leftist "collectives" do, you can blame the government, and demand "funding" from them. What an outdated, ineffectual fucking asshole you are. You act as if your worn-out cliche ideas are some kind of hidden information that only you have access to. I would really like to kick the fucking shit out of you sometime, and knock some fucking sense into your dried out old brain. I really hope that you get severely beaten by some scumbags of color in berkeley. I really hope that your "significant other" gets gang-raped by scumbags of color. I hope they beat you really severely, so that when you recover, you can blame yourself for the attack.
SmashTheLeft is a literary creation, a figment of nessie's imagination. Nessie made up SmashTheLeft and writes all his posts. She does this to make herself look good by comparison.
Now you know.
field when posting here in the comment section at sfimc ? a rough guess will do. if you choose to ignore this question i will understand.
If you find any good stuff in the future about the Croats and the Ustashi which you haven't already posted, please be sure to let me know.
Thanks again :)
just thought it'd be nice to pull shit little piece out. do any sane people have any doubts as to what smashtheleft is all about? i didn't think so.