German Justice Minister Compares Bush to Hitler

Here is Bush Sr. and Gary Hart on video talking about a "New World Order" ie Global Dictatorship

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/09/150212.php

Bush part Of Skull and Bones(NAZI Group)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/802773.asp

This purpose has driven Bonesmen to ascend to the top levels of so many fields that, as one historian observes, “at any one time The Order can call on members in any area of American society to do what has to be done.” Several Bonesmen have been senators, congressmen, Supreme Court justices, and Cabinet officials. There is a Bones cell in the CIA, which uses the society as a recruiting ground because the members are so obviously adept at keeping secrets. Society members dominate financial institutions such as J. P. Morgan, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, and Brown Brothers Harriman, where at one time more than a third of the partners were Bonesmen.

Through these companies, Skull and Bones provided financial backing to Adolf Hitler because the society then followed a Nazi-and now follows a neo-Nazi—doctrine.

At least a dozen Bonesmen have been linked to the Federal Reserve, including the first chairman of the New York Federal Reserve. Skull and Bones members control the wealth of the Rockefeller, Carnegie, and Ford families.

It is during this initiation that the new members are introduced to the artifacts in the tomb, among them Nazi memorabilia—including a set of Hitler’s silverware-dozens of skulls, and an assortment of decorative tchotchkes: coffins, skeletons, and innards.

Inside a cold, foreboding structure of brown sandstone in New Haven, Conn., lives one of the most heavily shrouded secret societies in American history. Yale’s super-elite Skull and Bones, a 200-year-old organization whose roster is stocked with some of the country’s most prominent families: Bush, Harriman, Phelps, Rockefeller, Taft, and Whitney. Journalist Alexandra Robbins, herself a member of another of Yale’s secret societies, interviewed more than a hundred Bonesmen and writes about the rituals that make up the organization. Read an excerpt from her book ‘The Secrets of the Tomb’ below.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/802773.asp

Author links Bush family to Nazis

The president of the Florida Holocaust Museum said Saturday that George W. Bush's grandfather derived a portion of his personal fortune through his affiliation with a Nazi-controlled bank.

John Loftus, a former prosecutor in the Justice Department's Nazi War Crimes Unit, said his research found that Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush, was a principal in the Union Banking Corp. in Manhattan in the late 1930s and the 1940s.

Leading Nazi industrialists secretly owned the bank at that time, Loftus said, and were moving money into it through a second bank in Holland even after the United States declared war on Germany. The bank was liquidated in 1951, Loftus said, and Bush's grandfather and great-grandfather received $1.5 million from the bank as part of that dissolution.

"That's where the Bush family fortune came from: It came from the Third Reich," Loftus said

http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.html

But while President Bush publicly embraced the community of holocaust survivors in Washington last spring, he and his family have been keeping a secret from them for over 50 years about Prescott Bush, the president's grandfather. According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush.

Throughout the Bush family's decades of public life, the American press has gone out of its way to overlook one historical fact – that through Union Banking Corporation (UBC), Prescott Bush, and his father-in-law, George Herbert Walker, along with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, financed Adolf Hitler before and during World War II. It was first reported in 1994 by John Loftus and Mark Aarons in The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People.

http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

How important was the Nazi enterprise for which President Bush's father was the New York banker?

The 1942 U.S. government investigative report said that Bush's Nazi-front bank was an interlocking concern with the Vereinigte Stahlwerke (United Steel Works Corporation or German Steel Trust) led by Fritz Thyssen and his two brothers. After the war, Congressional investigators probed the Thyssen interests, Union Banking Corp. and related Nazi units. The investigation showed that the Vereinigte Stahlwerke had produced the following approximate proportions of total German national output:

50.8% of Nazi Germany's pig iron
41.4% of Nazi Germany's universal plate
36.0% of Nazi Germany's heavy plate
38.5% of Nazi Germany's galvanized sheet
45.5% of Nazi Germany's pipes and tubes
22.1% of Nazi Germany's wire
35.0% of Nazi Germany's explosives.

Prescott Bush became vice president of W.A. Harriman & Co. in 1926. That same year, a friend of Harriman and Bush set up a giant new organization for their client Fritz Thyssen, prime sponsor of politician Adolf Hitler. The new German Steel Trust, Germany's largest industrial corporation, was organized in 1926 by Wall Street banker Clarence Dillon. Dillon was the old comrade of Prescott Bush's father Sam Bush from the `` Merchants of Death '' bureau in World War I.

Now you know!

I guess most people don't care or don't want to know.

Germany has been treated with a damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don't attitude by the US in the last couple of weeks. The reason Germans frequently compare Bush as well as potential political candidates for office with Hitler is because of their history 57 years ago, and they are extremely hesitant to enter any conflict due to their history. Then in the NYTimes yesterday, William Safire was charging that Germans don't support the US going into Iraq because of antisemitism, and so Germany must be just like it is emerging from WWII. Anyone old enough to vote in 1939 would be 81 years or older right now, but often they are regarded as if it WWII occurred yesterday and they still have similar attitudes, but the majority of germans are the biggest peaceniks. Germany has seriously worked through a lot of its issues compared to other european and north american countries during the past 50 yrs, but the US hasn't begun to recognize that it has been a colonial power just like England and Spain and France. What exactly is our goal in Iraq... apparently weapons inspections is not the goal, so we're going to escalate bombing (which has gone on during the past 10 years) until what occurs?

While they are there they are talking about invading Saudia Arabia. The excuse will be a civil war. Guess whos gonna take the heat for that move? Us the American people. While I don;t deserve it, all the stupid flag waving (fake Patriots) people perhaps do.

i'm not gonna argue that the US isn't gonna launch a full-scale war against Iraq, but I don't think it's wise to assume that it is.

i'm inclined to think that a lot of what is going on is about pushing the boundaries of what's permissable, sizing up potential opposition, keeping everyone on (and off) guard, etc.

Bush and Co. win when oppositionists' actions are dictated fully by their latest huffing and puffing. These scum love setting the terms -- let's not let them.

i'm not gonna argue that the US isn't gonna launch a full-scale war against Iraq, but I don't think it's wise to assume that it is.

i'm inclined to think that a lot of what is going on is about pushing the boundaries of what's permissable, sizing up potential opposition, keeping everyone on (and off) guard, etc.

Bush and Co. win when oppositionists' actions are dictated fully by their latest huffing and puffing. These scum love setting the terms -- let's not let them.

I believe in more weapons inspections. My nasal passages are impacted with the anal residue of members of the United Nations, the biggest collection of despots and torturers around, the closest thing we now have to StarFleet.

(Any Borg fans out there? I'm looking for penpals.)

I believe in more weapons inspections. My nasal passages are impacted with the anal residue of members of the United Nations, the biggest collection of despots and torturers around, the closest thing we now have to StarFleet.

(Any Borg fans out there? I'm looking for penpals.)

Chant for all peace demonstrations:
Hitler Rose and Hitler Fell,
Fascist Bush,
Go to Hell!

9/11/01 was a Reichstag Fire used to attack dissent and labor at home and perpetrate blood for oil wars abroad, just as the Nazis did. The 9/11/01 bombings were perpetrated by the US military and the CIA, with assistance from Israel. Israel is a US puppet state and US military base to protect US oil profits in the Middle East. There were no hijackers on those planes; they were operated by remote control. The towers in New York were brought down by explosives set inside the towers; no fire could bring them down in their own footprint. Those towers were built to withstand an airplane crash as that is an obvious possibility and in fact happened to the Empire State building in the 1940s. The fact that the firefighters reached the first floor that was hit means there was no raging fire in those towers. No plane crashed into the Pentagon either; what caused the death and damage is debatable, but the debate does not include one of the hijacked planes. The US Air Force was told to stand down although it could easily have prevented all 3 hijackings. Believe it or not, we have an excellent air defense system and we have excellent intelligence services, courtesy us taxpayers, to the tune of billions of dollars. Election Fraud Bush is Commander in Chief. This whole scenario was planned years ago, as the 200-plus page Fascist Act approved by Congress without their bothering to read it proves. This Fascist Act which destroys the Bill of Rights was obviously prepared long ago, verified by its length. It is outrageous that any congressperson votes for any legislation without reading it. If they do no have time to read it, they should vote against it.

I'd love to hear how aaron, the little indybay panty-waste, intends to stop this machine! Please tell me yew big, bwad libwal yew!

His estrogen levels must have temporarily waned again.

Now YOU'RE getting cranky!
Have some more warm milk. Later
after your nap and a good burping
you can compose some more poorly
constructed lyrics! You'll feel
Better. Maybe not.

The queen of indybay chirps up! Long live the queen!

Sheepy, ever considered taking that act on the road? Or are you an invalid shut-in? You and nessie could make a ton-a-dough smaking off at each other in person on the stage, just like that Laurell and Hardy bit, ya know "Who's on first". I'd pay a dollar to see it.

Now queendog, wipe yer lip. Yer dribblings are getting all over yer shirt.

Eric, the legend in his own mind
Tells us about “defending” his toys until death (other peoples probably, not his) ranting
about liberals, waiting for someone to love him (after all, he IS a legend) smirking
about other’s tough luck and comforted by his peers the other rabid weasels.

Tell me, just out of curiosity; have you ever served in the defense of this
land, with which its socialism i.e. the Fire departments, police water and school systems
we depend upon?
Were you born in hospital your family owned? Went to private schools? Have your own water cistern and your own gated community? Your own security force?

Oh great one, please tell me.

We could terra form a planet for you to be its god where you could implement
all your right wing blustering self satisfied bitter hateful self serving ideologies. We could even set you up with a lobotomized date in your own garden of evil.

Meanwhile, until your bipolar problems settle down, you can bask in the
glorious view of your full length mirror.

OH DAMN, NOW I’M GETTING CRANKY; WHERE’S THAT SPLIF?

Very goog dig, some good reasons for the smell comming
from the crowd currently in the white house; much thanks.

Forgive the former outburst, my medications working
now.

Congratulation to Dr.Daiubler-Gmelin for telling the truth when almost all the world leaders are engaged in sycophancy. She is quite correct by telling "Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic problems. This is a popular method. Hitler also used it." Let us examine the track record of the US. It used atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
In fact USA is the only country which used nuclear weapon irressponsibly. If the people working at UN were honest in true sense (like Daiubler-Gmelin) they would have raised voice to send UN inspectors to USA before sending them to Iraq.US also used chemical weapons in Vietnam and N. Korea. It then dropped weapons like daisy cutter bombs and low grade Uranium based weapons over Iraq, Yugoslavia and else where. The US is also continuously helping to arm its allies like Israel, with weapons of mass destruction. US foreign policy is largely responsible henious terrorist attack on September 11,2001. Palestinians and Israelis are nice people and they could have lived in peace but US created division and killing them for oil for decades. So the world need more Daiubler-Gmelin for world peace.

I don't claim that I can take down the "machine" single-handedly.

Judging from the state of your beloved America, it would seem that the "machine" is in the process of taking itself down--with you as an erstwhile cheerleader.

Let's face it, Eric: You're a bufoon and a clown. You act like US capitalism is indomitable. The other day I listed off a bunch of reasons why you rightists shouldn't be chortling so triumphantly:

Plummeting stock market
Falling profits
Stupidly high price/earnings ratios
Massive corporate and household debt
Housing bubble
Financial chaos
Huge overcapacity
Collapsing demand
Tens of thousands homeless
Mass lay-offs
Rising health care costs
Social cutbacks
Increasing poverty and growing chasm in wealth
Failed "war on terrorism"

All I will say to you Errant Eric is the whirligig of time has its revenges.
You'll be eating shit soon enough.

I TOLD you to wait until your bipolar problems settle
down, didn't I?
Perhaps your current medication isn't working and you
should go back to your nice doctor. You'll FEEL better!
...
Maybe not.

Now go into your liberal this, liberal that rant
to provide us some more amusement, Mr. I'm sooo fucking
great, smart, successful Blah Blah Blah

yawn....

stop blaming your unhappy life on jews.
Jews are good moral people and their being attack is the only reason for Israel to exist in the first place.
If the none-Jewish people were tolerant of the rest of the people you would not be laneled a white supremacist antisemite palestinian whore.

The following was crafted for the "American Haters" thread in response to Eric's brain-dead retort.
Given that my list elicited such a (predictably) thought-provoking response on this thread as well, I thought I'd post my response here too.

Eric claims equities markets have "stabilized". I guess it's all relative, but I'd hardly call losing 800 points in the past eight trading days stability. The NASDAQ -- which market-religionists only a couple years ago pointed to pridefully as evidence of capital's strength and vigor -- has lost 76.5% of its value in the past two years. And the Dow has lost, what, 25%? Combined, trillions and trillions of dollars of paper wealth has evaporated since 2000. Even so, price/earnings ratios still remain FAR higher than would suggest that the end of the bear market is upon us. I predict the indexes will continue their descent, wiping out huge amounts more of paper wealth. C'est la vie!

If Eric wants to argue that there's no problem with corporate profits, perhaps he could talk to the CEOs at Charles Schwab, Merril Lynch, Qwest, WorldCom,
Global Crossing, Fannie Mae, Enron.... they'll set his sorry ass straight.

Between 1990 and 2000, average American household debt increased from $3,000 to $8,100. And household debt has only increased in the past couple years. Consumer debt, as of August 1st of this year, stands at $1.173 trillion according Bloomberg Business (9/9/02). Indeed, it is the massive expansion of indebtedness that has thus far made this recession bearable for many. But for how long can this last? Astute partisans of capital --as opposed to smug gas-bags like Eric -- worry that it can't forever. Something has to give.

Corporate debt, meanwhile, increased from $2 trillion in 1997 to $3.7 trillion in 2002. Ouch.

In 1989, mortgage debt stood at $3178.8 billion, in 2001 dollars. In the second quarter of 2001, it was at $5,143.2 billion, an increase of 61.8 percent. According to the Federal Reserve Board Flow of Funds, the ratio of homeowner’s equity to market value was at 55.2% in 2001, the lowest ratio ever recorded -- as compared to 77.1% in the 1950s. There is every reason to believe that the ratio has decreased in the past year.

"With real-estate prices up, you would think that Americans would be rolling in home equity. But as fast as they lay hands on it, they are borrowing it out. "
- Nicholas Retsinas, director of the Joint Center for Housing Studies at Harvard University.

Methinks there may very well be a housing bubble. If it bursts, all bets are off. After all, it's big part of what's keeping the economy afloat.

As to over-capacity: It is estimated that global manufacturing is operating at approximately 70% capacity. The telecom industry is in the worst straights, with less than 3% of fiber optic cable having been put into effect.

As to lay-offs: Any cursory look at the newspaper proves that companies are continuing to fire workers Charles Schwab is axing a shit-load, as are the investment banks, etc etc. Many analysts predict a lot more to come.

As to financial chaos: Take a good look at Brazil and Argentina -- both countries that market-religionists only a few years ago pointed to as vindicating their shitty creed -- and then argue that the global financial system is in good shape.

According to today's Arizona Republic, health care premiums have increased by 12.7% this year alone. This has hurt both workers (as suggested by the quote below) and prospective entrepreneurial start-ups. The Arizona Republic also reported that "self-employment" dropped to a record low 6.2% in February of this year, and venture capital is off 53% from last year.

“Health care costs are rising while the economy is sputtering, and it looks like workers are going to pay the price” -- Drew Altman, Kaiser Foundation President. October, 2001

"Consumer confidence" is also starting to show signs of falling off, despite the fact that credit card companies continue to ply hapless consumers with more "great deals". Errant Eric may have (or may not have) just purchased a SUV, but there's every reason to believe that the jump in car sales will level-off and decline -- as will housing purchases. These, we must remember, have been the twin pillars of the vaunted consumer confidence that has thus far kept the economy ticking over, albeit anemically, for the past year. I predict demand will continue to erode in lieu of a new boom that nobody views as imminent.

As to homelessness: Eric's claim that homelessness has always been around is a complacent lie, and so typical of his callous disregard for the plight of those fucked over by a system he uncritically embraces.
Homelessness, in fact, appeared in America in the 80s and was directly related to shifts in the capitalist economy and public policy. Think: gentrification, social cutbacks, declining wages. The LA Times on 1/12/02 reported that shelter requests were at record highs in NY, Boston, Milwaukee, Cleveland and other cities. It reported that a recent survey by the US Conference of Mayors found a huge jump in need in two dozen cities, up 26% in Trenton, NJ, 25% in Kansas City, 20% in Denver and New Orleans. In Boston the situation is so bad, it reported, that the city has taken to putting the homeless in suburban hotels. There is no reason to believe that homelessness has decreased since the LA Times report. Indeed, there is every reason to believe that it has increased.

As to poverty: According to Census data, the poverty rate in California increased to 19% in 2000. These figures were determined based on numbers accumulated during the height of the (speculative) boom, and is made even more outragous when we consider that poverty is defined as less than $18,000/year for a family of four. Again, there's every reason to believe that poverty has increased (significantly) since the Census numbers were formulated.

Bottom line to Eric and all the other heartless rightists that litter this forum with their worthless "comments":
Capitalism is in a ditch and all your bellicose pronouncements don't change that fundamental fact. On the contrary, they only serve to make you look like complete fucking imbeciles.
Keep on cheering the train-wreck, shit-heads!!!

Eric must have struck a nerve!

But I've decided that aaron is right. This thing is coming off the tracks, and just like the good folks here at indybay, I've decided to turn over a new leaf and do everything in my power to help it along. See, I'm a gun fanatic and southern boy. I grew up hunting and fishing and living off the land. I know how to survive. And with no government or laws to stand in my way, these liberals will be fair game for us "warmongers". It'll be anarchy! Give 'em just what they ask for!! Then we can roll in, guns a-blazin' and get rid of the problem once and for all. After business is taking care of and the bloody massacre is all but cleaned up, we can start over and rebuild. If I were a homosexual liberal I'd be praying that the system holds up with all the prayer I could muster!

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/af.htm

You don't think the "system" is holding me (and people like me) back from wreaking havoc?

Please elaborate.

1. You can't answer a question with a question.

2. You and I both know what kind of person I am. It's not me that you have to worry about. But there are plenty out there that I would be worried about if I were really trying to bring the system down.

3. I think my point is very clear and my question is very fair. Aren't you even concerned in the slightest that your efforts are likely to backfire and work against you if by some slim chance you one day succeed?

"Get off your high horse. Us Yankees kicked your butt once and we could do it again any day, one hand behind our back. We’re baddass. Don’t mess with us."

Keep in mind, these are the same people who, when vacationing in Florida, pay good money to visit an "aligator farm". And, you can sell them water. Useful idiots.

I can’t really answer your question, because I really don’t know the answer. I imagine a world without laws and “guns & clubs” to keep people at bay and I just don’t know how I’d react to that world. I think it’s highly probable that I’d act like everyone else in that environment, and I don’t envision it to be a pretty picture. I imagine something like LA during the Rodney King riots. I mean sure, I’d like to be as presumptuous as you and claim the higher moral ground, that I wouldn’t be in the middle of the melee, but I’m not an idealist, and I understand fundamental human nature. So, I just don’t know.

Yes, I’ve seen the Deer Hunter and I’ve also read “Lord of the Flies”. You’re right that we Southern boys don’t like cold weather. We much prefer a cold glass of sweet tea and a bag of boiled peanuts on a muggy Georgia evening, sitting in our rocking chairs on the porch talking of hunting and fishing. I’d bet you couldn’t deal with the gnats, let alone the diamond backs. Ever seen a four-foot long rattler up close and personal like? Where I’m from, we call those “supper”. But yeah, most of us don’t like cold weather much none, but my military training would allow me to cope.

As far as the civil war is concerned, regardless of what you might believe, most of us are over it. Even though we may have lost, you Yankees took a pretty good ass whoopin’. I reckon’ you probly know that though.

But bragging ain’t my forte. I leave that up to the arrogant folks. What it comes down to here is that I know there’s evil people in this world. You know it too, else you wouldn’t feel the need for a gun. Ultimately, this conversation ain’t about me or you. I’ve said it before a million times on here. I’ll say it again. I’d die for this country and for that “system”. That “system” is the one thing standing between you & me, the rest of the liberals, the conservatives, everyone else around here…

And the truly evil people that would come and put us all six feet under.

First you say I have no facts to support my arguement.

Then when I supply a truck-load of 'em you get your panties in a twist.

I showed that capitalism is in crisis and that crisis isn't anywhere near over.

I'm not talking about your finances dick-weed.

I'm talking about capital's capacity to expand.

Anti-capitalists have been saying that the system is unsustainable. We're being proven correct.

More so everyday.

You can attempt to change the subject. I would too if I were you.

You see, Eric, nobody cares that you eat boiled peanuts on a porch in Georgia.

Or that you and your silly ass friends pass the time drooling over the latest squirrel kill.

Try coming through my neighborhood with your redneck retribution act and you'll be dead right quick. Guaranteed.

I think it's pointless, we gave Eric his own
thread and we thought it would make him happy, he could
pontificate endlessly to stay on the board and
entertain himself and the other weasels but he's
trying SO hard to show us his promised land
of might makes right he wont change until
he actually leads his own death squad like
his hero Sen. Kerrey.

To bad, he could give us some pointers on
cooking rattle snake. I only know about Slow
roast over a fire curled around a stick..

The Dow Jones lost 189 points today!

You're right.

Errant Eric is a clown.

Unable to make an effective counter-arguement, he instead changes the discussion.

Suddenly it's funny time. Humorless humor for oafs and rubes.

If he weren't such a greedy and malevolent piece of shit, I'd feel sorry for him.

"Try coming through my neighborhood with your redneck retribution act and you'll be dead right quick. Guaranteed."

Oooooooooooooooo! I have goose bumps. It looks like IDAK has challenged me to a dual. IDAK, don't you know when you say that you're supposed to preface it with "CRUSH, KILL, DESTROY!"

It sounds like old aaron is from the hood. He seems to be too mild to be so hard, doesn't he folks? Aaron, an economics major like you shouldn't be trying to make himself out to be so tough like that. I mean, you should be proud of the gifts G-d gave you, not try to act like something you're not. So people were blessed with brains, some with killer instincts. You shouldn't be disappointed because you're only good with numbers.

That's why the forum is filled with a bunch of fuckin idiots still (still)
That's why the first motherfucker poppin some shit here gets killed (killed)
That's why we don't call it IMC, we call it Amityville ('Ville)
You can get capped after just havin a cavity filled (filled)
That's why we're crowned the murder capital of the internet still (still)
This ain't Indybay, this is motherfuckin Hamburger Hill! (Hill!)
We don't do drivebys, we park in front of computers and shoot
and when the Republicans come we fuckin shoot it out with them too!
That's the mentality here (here) that's the reality here (here)
Did I just hear somebody say they wanna challenge me here?? (huh?)
While I'm holdin a pistol with this many calibres here?? (here??)
Plus this registration that just made this shit valid this year? (year?)
Cause once I snap I can't be held accountable for my actions
and that's when accidents happen,
when a thousand bullets come at your house
and collapse the foundation around and they found you
and your family in it (AHHHHH!)
GOT DAMNIT HE MEANT IT WHEN HE TELLS YOU

Mentally illll from Amityvilllle (ILLLL)
Accidentally killll your family stillll
Thinkin he won't? God-damnit he willll (HE'SSSS)
Mentally illll from Amityvilllle

Another day has passed and still no serious counter-arguement from the boiled peanut eater.

Could that be because my analysis is essentially correct?

I don't claim that capitalism is about to collapse.

I claim that there is little or no basis for a new round of capital accumulation in the coming period.

Without that, all your bluster about America this, America that, is completely hollow.

Witless sociopaths like you Jo Jo -- I mean Eric -- think that everyone except for a few malcontents is on the same fucked up page as you.

If you saw me in flesh (without speaking to me) you'd probably assume I was there too.

I don't fit your profile, that's all I'm gonna say.

But I ask: why has there been no upsurge in recruitment into the armed forces since 911?

How does that jibe with all the red, white, and blue bullshit we've been subjected to for the past year?

I'd say it's because most people don't really believe in the system, or not enough to die for the US elites' geo-strategic game-plan.

This system, despite what TV tells you, doesn't engender much allegiance when all's said and done.

A stagnant economy and declining conditions don't help matters much either.

Just imagine what the allegiance level will be like if the US economy stays in a slump for several more years (or more).

You can huff and puff all you'd like, but this shit doesn't bode well for the cro-magnon perspective you hold dear.

What do you want from me aaron? I’ve already agreed with you for Christ’s sake! Are you going to beat me up and take my lunch money now too? God, you can’t even agree with these liberals without them getting upset about it!

Ok, I’ll play your silly little game if it will make you happy.

“Could that be because my analysis is essentially correct? “

Well, I haven’t been able to decipher exactly what the conclusions of your “analysis” are.

I mean, I thought you were trying to say that our capitalist system is either slowly or abruptly coming to an end and that you were pretty happy about it. I concluded from that that the economic catastrophe that follows was going to plunge the globe into a period of sustained anarchy. At first I was a little worried, but then I kinda liked the idea. It sort of grew on me.

Now all of sudden your “analysis” is:

“I don't claim that capitalism is about to collapse. I claim that there is little or no basis for a new round of capital accumulation in the coming period. “

Oh. Um. Ok…Well…What can I say? I’m sort of disappointed now. I was headed out to Walmart after work today to stock up on ammo, bottled water and canned goods. But now, I don’t know what to believe.

Does this mean our economy is just going to bottom out and stagnate at some point aaron? Does it mean that stocks are just going to “trade in a range” somewhere below the peaks of 2000? Isn’t that what the markets have always done in this country until some new technology (automobiles, computers, the internet) comes along and drives them even higher? What are you defining as a “period”? Is that the same thing as “forever”? Help me out here. I’m only an E/E major and didn’t have to take too many economics classes in college. But I’ll believe whatever you tell me. Honest!

You being a drama queen isn’t going to change things one way or the other there, Catherine Hepburn. All you’re going to do is give yourself an embolism. People have been preaching gloom and doom ever since the Earth cooled and the dinosaurs showed up. Americans aren’t sitting around expected things to always be hunky-dory. We like to pride ourselves on the fact that even in our short history, we have demonstrated amazing resilience and bounced back from even the toughest of times. We could start with the Revolutionary War for starters, work our way through the War Between the States, WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm, a few depressions recessions, Pearl Harbor and God knows what else I’m forgetting…the point being this ain’t even close to the toughest we’ve faced. So please, quit being so ridiculous dear; you’re scaring the children!

“I don't fit your profile, that's all I'm gonna say. “

Really? I’d love to know more. What makes YOU so unique?

“But I ask: why has there been no upsurge in recruitment into the armed forces since 911? “

Don’t you think we have enough soldiers for God’s sake? I really don’t think we could afford anymore right now! Our army is already the biggest, most highly advanced, and technically armed in the history of man!

Trust me dear, if we were hurting for soldiers, after 9-11 there would have been plenty of folks knocking on the recruiter’s doors. I personally know 2 people that have joined up in the last year. It’s all my thirteen-year-old son talks about. You and I live in two different parts of the country, but I honestly believe if you think there are no patriots left in this country that are ready to fight and die, you are pretty far disconnected.

Now I don’t plan to expend this much energy on you again aaron. So quit addressing me with your drivel. I don’t have the energy to pamper spoiled little children like this everyday. “Daddy, pay attention to me! Love me daddy! Talk to me daddy!”

I’m not your daddy. Address the forum with your tripe or pick up that phone and call your daddy.

Why does every thread on this site slowly move from some topic to two(maybe three) people yelling at each other in a usually funny but not very inciteful way? Perhaps its the latest comment page? Would getting rid of that keep people more on topic?

I mean this quote cracjed me up:

"I was headed out to Walmart after work today to stock up on ammo, bottled water and canned goods. But now, I don’t know what to believe. "

Its always good to have an extra supply of those things anyway in case of natural disaster, but it has little to do with a German minister comparing Bush to Hitler. The comparison had nothing to do with Capitalism and was based off her belief that Bush seemed to be mainly supporting this war for domestic political reasons.

Distract, divert, change the subject and encourage interpersonal conflicts, especially by use of forgery.

If you read the whole thread, and not just skim, you might have a better understanding of the evolution of the conversations.

Most conversations do tend to start at point "A" and arrive at "Z" not necessarily in your uni-dimentional method of thinking, but via "J", "Y", "C", and "F", as well as the "rest" of the alphabet, and not necessarily in any particular order.

Just a thought though. Don't let it side-track you from trying to figure out why Germany is bad-mouthing the USA. Nothing more important than that.

Aaron, I must know, don't you feel even remotely like an idiot after posting:

"The Dow Jones lost 189 points today!"

yesterday, when it surged UP in interim trading in excess of 200 points and closed UP nearly 160 points today?

I know I would. But I don't. I made nearly $480 today after being long 500 shares of Gymboree! Looks like people are still buying baby clothes! I'm thinking of going out tonight for shit, *ahem* I mean, dinner, to celebrate!

Here's a little advice for our aspiring resident swing trader. The best time to trade in the markets is when the are moving. Up, down, makes no difference. I can go short just as easily as I can go long. What pisses me off is when they are trading sideways big boy!

Oh, and don't forget: "Buy low, and sell high" there mr. Economics major!

yup definitely cointelpro tactics; really tactics for anyone who wants to maintain the status quo.

every minute you've got a progressive-minded person arguing in circles with you, is a minute that progressive-minded person isn't doing something productive to challenge the status qou.

thats probably why this guy eric is so obsessed with this message board.

The German election was really indicati-- a fuck that.

Glad to hear you made some hard-earned money on the stock market today Errant.

I retract my critique entirely. Capitalism is back!! I mean the markets never swing upward like they did today when the "fundamentals" are unsound.

There's no crisis. Tell Jr. that everything's peachy. Ready the boy for imperial war and a strip mall on every block.

Poor kid.

"The public preference for stock is not only as marked as ever, but also the will to speculate is still a speculative factor not to be overlooked. The prompt return of huge speculation and the liberal manner in which earnings are again being discounted indicate that it will be difficult to quench the fires of stock market enthusiasm for long."
- Barron's, March 24, 1930

I went out to dinner last night and had a big bowl of shit, just for you eggy. Funny thing was that it tasted just like lobster bisque. I guess it ain't so bad after all!

Went home, got a good nights sleep, booted up the old cpu fully expecting another page and a half rant from old eggface. Instead I got next to nothing? What happend eggy, did some of that egg drool onto your keyboard?

I mean, all I got was:

"I mean the markets never swing upward like they did today when the "fundamentals" are unsound. "

Which is it eggboy? One day you're cheering a 200 point drop and the next day you're rationalizing a 200 point jump!

I suppose if you lie to yourself enough and repeat the same negative self-talk over and over again, eventually a person can brainwash himself and start to believe practically anything he likes!

Mercy me. Such is the delirium of the left. You guys sure are amusing though!

Remember when analysts said the market was inflated because of all the dot-com stocks etc in the late 90's? Well it's adjusted itself. It always does. Short term views of the market are foolish. If you're not in it for the long term, you shouldn't be in it at all.

All this talk of 401K's losing value is a bunch of BS too. If you put in $10,000 five years ago and it grew to $50,000 but the drop in the market reduced its value to $20,000, you didn't lose $30,000. You've gained $10,000 off your original investment of $10,000. I'll take it. To double your money every 5 years is pretty damn good.

Sure, doubling your scrilla is quite nice. But it's disingenuous to imply that that's been the case for many, let alone most, people.

The whole drive toward giving out stock options in lieu of a solid wage has been shown to be a gigantic scam. Not only have the stocks -- particularly but not exclusively in the tech sector -- lost much of their value; in addition, many workers face stipulations that they can't cash them out whenever they want to. Meanwhile, the CEOs and top managers fly off in a golden parachute.

It was reported recently that American workers for the first time now pay more into their pensions than do employers. Only an imbecile believes that capital has shifted to 401Ks for any reason other than it seeks to save money doing so. The speculative boom of the 90s gave cover to this shift because people were lead to believe that they could make out better with a 401K than with a traditional pension. In aggregate, capital wins and workers lose. Period.

I pointed out the 189 point loss on Tuesday because it flew in the face of Eric's previous argument (on another thread) that the markets have "stabilized". The fact that the Dow gained 160 yesterday (not 200 as Revanchist Eric writes above), seen in this light, tends to undermine, not underline, his claims.

Volatility on the equities markets aren't a sign of health, even if it grants heightened opportunities for profit-taking for some. My argument is that the system is in crisis. This crisis has been on slow burn since the early 70s. The rise in speculation -- in real estate and finance -- is, ultimately, in my view, a product of chronic over-capacity in global manufacturing and there's no cure in sight.

I don't emphasize the human toll of this crisis when addressing myself to smug rightists (like Eric) because they don't give a shit how many starve or are rendered destitute, so long as they're making a buck. If the economy were a car, Eric and his ilk only care that the exterior looks fine and they're in the drivers seat. The fact that their are millions and millions in misery in the trunk doesn't bother them a bit. My point is to say the engine gots a disease.

Today's Financial Times, reporting on the IMF's recent statement on the state of the global economy writes:

"In many respects, the latest World Economic Outlook paints a picture of a global economy stacked precariously like a house of cards, waiting for a hit from just one more morsel of economic misery to bring on a global recession."

TIMELINE OF GENERAL EVENTS

1920s (Decade)

During World War I, federal spending grows three times larger than tax collections. When the government cuts back spending to balance the budget in 1920, a severe recession results. However, the war economy invested heavily in the manufacturing sector, and the next decade will see an explosion of productivity... although only for certain sectors of the economy.

An average of 600 banks fail each year.

Agricultural, energy and coal mining sectors are continually depressed. Textiles, shoes, shipbuilding and railroads continually decline.

The value of farmland falls 30 to 40 percent between 1920 and 1929.

Organized labor declines throughout the decade. The United Mine Workers Union will see its membership fall from 500,000 in 1920 to 75,000 in 1928. The American Federation of Labor would fall from 5.1 million in 1920 to 3.4 million in 1929.

"Technological unemployment" enters the nation's vocabulary; as many as 200,000 workers a year are replaced by automatic or semi-automatic machinery.

Over the decade, about 1,200 mergers will swallow up more than 6,000 previously independent companies; by 1929, only 200 corporations will control over half of all American industry.

By the end of the decade, the bottom 80 percent of all income-earners will be removed from the tax rolls completely. Taxes on the rich will fall throughout the decade.

By 1929, the richest 1 percent will own 40 percent of the nation's wealth. The bottom 93 percent will have experienced a 4 percent drop in real disposable per-capita income between 1923 and 1929.

The middle class comprises only 15 to 20 percent of all Americans.

Individual worker productivity rises an astonishing 43 percent from 1919 to 1929. But the rewards are being funneled to the top: the number of people reporting half-million dollar incomes grows from 156 to 1,489 between 1920 and 1929, a phenomenal rise compared to other decades. But that is still less than 1 percent of all income-earners.

1922

The conservative Supreme Court strikes down federal child labor legislation.

1923

President Warren Harding dies in office; his administration was easily one of the most corrupt in American history. Calvin Coolidge, who is squeaky clean by comparison, becomes president. Coolidge is no less committed to laissez-faire and a non-interventionist government. He announces to the American people: "The business of America is business."

Supreme Court nullifies minimum wage for women in District of Columbia.

1924

The Ku Klux Klan reaches the height of its influence in America: by the end of the year it will claim 9 million members. It will decline drastically in 1925, however, after financial and moral scandals rock its leadership.

The stock market begins its spectacular rise. Bears little relation to the rest of the economy.

1925

The top tax rate is lowered to 25 percent - the lowest top rate in the eight decades since World War I.

Supreme Court rules that trade organizations do not violate anti-trust laws as long as some competition survives.

1928

The construction boom is over.

Farmers' share of the national income has dropped from 15 to 9 percent since 1920.

Between May 1928 and September 1929, the average prices of stocks will rise 40 percent. Trading will mushroom from 2-3 million shares per day to over 5 million. The boom is largely artificial.

1929

Herbert Hoover becomes President. Hoover is a staunch individualist but not as committed to laissez-faire ideology as Coolidge.

More than half of all Americans are living below a minimum subsistence level.

Annual per-capita income is $750; for farm people, it is only $273.

Backlog of business inventories grows three times larger than the year before. Public consumption markedly down.

Freight carloads and manufacturing fall.

Automobile sales decline by a third in the nine months before the crash.

Construction down $2 billion since 1926.

Recession begins in August, two months before the stock market crash. During this two month period, production will decline at an annual rate of 20 percent, wholesale prices at 7.5 percent, and personal income at 5 percent.

Stock market crash begins October 24. Investors call October 29 "Black Tuesday." Losses for the month will total $16 billion, an astronomical sum in those days.

Congress passes Agricultural Marketing Act to support farmers until they can get back on their feet.

1930

By February, the Federal Reserve has cut the prime interest rate from 6 to 4 percent. Expands the money supply with a major purchase of U.S. securities. However, for the next year and a half, the Fed will add very little money to the shrinking economy. (At no time will it actually pull money out of the system.) Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon announces that the Fed will stand by as the market works itself out: "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate real estate… values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wreck from less-competent people." (More)

The Smoot-Hawley Tariff passes on June 17. With imports forming only 6 percent of the GNP, the 40 percent tariffs work out to an effective tax of only 2.4 percent per citizen. Even this is compensated for by the fact that American businesses are no longer investing in Europe, but keeping their money stateside. The consensus of modern economists is that the tariff made only a minor contribution to the Great Depression in the U.S., but a major one in Europe. (More)

The first bank panic occurs later this year; a public run on banks results in a wave of bankruptcies. Bank failures and deposit losses are responsible for the contracting money supply.

Supreme Court rules that the monopoly U.S. Steel does not violate anti-trust laws as long as competition exists, no matter how negligible.

Democrats gain in Congressional elections, but still do not have a majority.

The GNP falls 9.4 percent from the year before. The unemployment rate climbs from 3.2 to 8.7 percent.

1931

No major legislation is passed addressing the Depression.

A second banking panic occurs in the spring.

The GNP falls another 8.5 percent; unemployment rises to 15.9 percent.

1932

This and the next year are the worst years of the Great Depression. For 1932, GNP falls a record 13.4 percent; unemployment rises to 23.6 percent.

Industrial stocks have lost 80 percent of their value since 1930.

10,000 banks have failed since 1929, or 40 percent of the 1929 total.

About $2 billion in deposits have been lost since 1929.

Money supply has contracted 31 percent since 1929.

GNP has also fallen 31 percent since 1929.

Over 13 million Americans have lost their jobs since 1929.

Capital growth investments have dropped from $16.2 billion to 1/3 of one billion since 1929.

Farm prices have fallen 53 percent since 1929.

International trade has fallen by two-thirds since 1929.

The Fed makes its first major expansion of the money supply since February 1930.

Congress creates the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. (More)

Congress passes the Federal Home Loan Bank Act and the Glass-Steagall Act of 1932. (More)

Top tax rate is raised from 25 to 63 percent.

Popular opinion considers Hoover's measures too little too late. Franklin Roosevelt easily defeats Hoover in the fall election. Democrats win control of Congress.

At his Democratic presidential nomination, Roosevelt says: "I pledge you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people."

1933

Roosevelt inaugurated; begins "First 100 Days" of intensive legislative activity. (More)

A third banking panic occurs in March. Roosevelt declares a Bank Holiday; closes financial institutions to stop a run on banks.

Alarmed by Roosevelt's plan to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, a group of millionaire businessmen, led by the Du Pont and J.P. Morgan empires, plans to overthrow Roosevelt with a military coup and install a fascist government. The businessmen try to recruit General Smedley Butler, promising him an army of 500,000, unlimited financial backing and generous media spin control. The plot is foiled when Butler reports it to Congress. (More)

Congress authorizes creation of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Farm Credit Administration, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the National Recovery Administration, the Public Works Administration and the Tennessee Valley Authority. (More)

Congress passes the Emergency Banking Bill, the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, the Farm Credit Act, the National Industrial Recovery Act and the Truth-in- Securities Act. (More)

U.S. goes off the gold standard.

Roosevelt does much to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, but is obsessed with a balanced budget. He later rejects Keynes' advice to begin heavy deficit spending.

The free fall of the GNP is significantly slowed; it dips only 2.1 percent this year. Unemployment rises slightly, to 24.9 percent.

1934

Congress authorizes creation of the Federal Communications Commission, the National Mediation Board and the Securities and Exchange Commission. (More)

Congress passes the Securities and Exchange Act and the Trade Agreement Act. (More)

The economy turns around: GNP rises 7.7 percent, and unemployment falls to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery begins.

Sweden becomes the first nation to recover fully from the Great Depression. It has followed a policy of Keynesian deficit spending. (More)

1935

The Supreme Court declares the National Recovery Administration to be unconstitutional.

Congress authorizes creation of the Works Progress Administration, the National Labor Relations Board and the Rural Electrification Administration. (More)

Congress passes the Banking Act of 1935, the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act, the National Labor Relations Act, and the Social Security Act. (More)

Economic recovery continues: the GNP grows another 8.1 percent, and unemployment falls to 20.1 percent.

1936

The Supreme Court declares part of the Agricultural Adjustment Act to be unconstitutional.

In response, Congress passes the Soil Conservation and Domestic Allotment Act. (More)

Top tax rate raised to 79 percent.

Economic recovery continues: GNP grows a record 14.1 percent; unemployment falls to 16.9 percent.

Germany becomes the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, through heavy deficit spending in preparation for war.

1937

The Supreme Court declares the National Labor Relations Board to be unconstitutional.

Roosevelt seeks to enlarge and therefore liberalize the Supreme Court. This attempt not only fails, but outrages the public.

Economists attribute economic growth so far to heavy government spending that is somewhat deficit. Roosevelt, however, fears an unbalanced budget and cuts spending for 1937. That summer, the nation plunges into another recession. Despite this, the yearly GNP rises 5.0 percent, and unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.

1938

Congress passes the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938 and the Fair Labor Standards Act. (More)

No major New Deal legislation is passed after this date, due to Roosevelt's weakened political power.

The year-long recession makes itself felt: the GNP falls 4.5 percent, and unemployment rises to 19.0 percent.

Britain becomes the third nation to recover as it begins deficit spending in preparation for war.

1939

GNP rises 7.9 percent; unemployment falls to 17.2 percent.

The United States will begin emerging from the Depression as it borrows and spends $1 billion to build its armed forces. From 1939 to 1941, when the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, U.S. manufacturing will have shot up a phenomenal 50 percent!

The Depression is ending worldwide as nations prepare for the coming hostilities.

World War II starts with Hitler's invasion of Poland.

1945

Although the war is the largest tragedy in human history, the United States emerges as the world's only economic superpower. Deficit spending has resulted in a national debt 123 percent the size of the GDP. By contrast, in 1994, the $4.7 trillion national debt will be only 70 percent of the GDP!

The top tax rate is 91 percent. It will stay at least 88 percent until 1963, when it is lowered to 70 percent. During this time, America will experience the greatest economic boom it has ever known.

ECONOMIC TIMELINE

The following timeline shows the order of economic events during the Great Depression. Notice the effect that deficit spending had on economic growth:

Receipts: Tax receipts as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product

Spending: Federal spending as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product

GNP: Percent change in the Gross National Product

Unemp.: Unemployment rate

Tax Federal GNP Unemp.
Year Receipts Spending Growth Rate
-------------------------------------------------
1929 -- -- -- 3.2% < Hoover era, Great Depression begins
1930 4.2% 3.4% - 9.4% 8.7
1931 3.7 4.3 - 8.5 15.9
1932 2.9 7.0 -13.4 23.6
1933 3.5 8.1 - 2.1 24.9 < FDR, New Deal begins; contraction ends March
1934 4.9 10.8 + 7.7 21.7
1935 5.3 9.3 + 8.1 20.1
1936 5.1 10.6 +14.1 16.9
1937 6.2 8.7 + 5.0 14.3 < recession begins, May
1938 7.7 7.8 - 4.5 19.0 < recession ends, June
1939 7.2 10.4 + 7.9 17.2
1940 6.9 9.9
1941 7.7 12.1
1942 10.3 24.8
1943 13.7 44.8
1944 21.7 45.3
1945 21.3 43.7

As you can see, Roosevelt began relatively modest deficit spending that arrested the slide of the economy and resulted in some astonishing growth numbers. (Roosevelt's average growth of 5.2 percent during the Great Depression is even higher than Reagan's 3.7 percent growth during his so-called "Seven Fat Years!") When 1936 saw a phenomenal record of 14 percent growth, Roosevelt eased back on the deficit spending, overly worried about balancing the budget. But this only caused the economy to slip back into a recession, as the above chart shows.

I have been unable to find reliable economic growth figures from World War II, but as a generalization it is safe to say the economy exploded, experiencing it’s greatest growth in U.S. history. Between 1940 and 1945, the GDP nearly doubled in size, from $832 billion to $1,559 billion in constant 87 dollars. And this occurred as deficit spending soared, to levels Keynes had earlier and unsuccessfully recommended to Roosevelt.

"The fact that the Dow gained 160 yesterday (not 200 as Revanchist Eric writes above), seen in this light, tends to undermine, not underline, his claims."

It's up 90 more points right now. You just keep right on sticking that foot in your mouth. Does it taste good?

Let's see. 160 plus um ...90 ah. That's 250 um minus 180 um that's um +70 points from your bullshit post 2 days ago. All that and I didn't even take but 1 lousy economics class in college

are you getting your quotes from eminem lyrics or something??

12/31/98 .... Dow at 11,365
12/31/01 .... Dow at 10,021.50
09/26/02 .... Dow at 9,495.58

http://www.djindexes.com/jsp/index.jsp

Historic Graph of the DJIA (everything looks ok to me!)


Why not provide it all? You must be a History major. They are notorious for biased recounts and telling only half the story.

I'm sorry mama
I never meant to hurt you
I never meant make you cry
But tonight, I'm cleaning out my closet
One More Time

I'm sorry mama
I never meant to hurt you
I never meant make you cry
But tonight, I'm cleaning out my closet

The DJIA is not nearly 9500 today. You should look twice before spouting off at the keys.

" (everything looks ok to me!)"

do you like obvious bell curves???

His numbers were in Equivalent Euro. Of course we know why his numbers are much high than those here. It's that exchange rate thing. Try as you may, you just ain't gonna get 1 euro for every dollar!

HAR!

Eric has made money in the current economy. I've made money in the current economy. If people put their money into 401K's with the expectation that the market never goes down, guess they learned a pretty damn hard lesson didn't they? Tough. Life's not fair. Never has been. Never will be. If you're in the US, we're all living in the same nationwide economy. If some are able to do fine and all others can do is whine about it, that tells you something about the business ability and character of that person.

The only agreement I have is that employees should be given the option of receiving income in lieu of stock options if they so desire. Switching compensation agreements after someone has already been hired and have budgeted themselves under a certain pay system should not be allowed without a reasonable time for the employee to adjust. However, if a potential new hire is told that a certain percentage of his income will be given to him via stock options and that he can't cash out for 3 years let's say, if he signs on he went in with his eyes wide open. Or if a potential hire is told that the employeer reserves the right to change the way the employee receives compensation with a one month notice, if he signs on he went in with both eyes open.

But everyone, and I mean everyone, should know the golden rule of investing: Don't put anymore in than you're willing to lose. Also, you better be in for the long term or you'll likely get burned. Markets do turn around and stabalize.

--If the economy were a car, Eric and his ilk only care that the exterior looks fine and they're in the drivers seat.

No he doesn't. Only a complete fool would look at a car and believe since the outside has just been washed the inside and trunk must have been vacuumed. You got to be even dumber to make a statement like that. Eric and myself look at the whole car. That's why were making moola and you probably aren't.

--The top tax rate is 91 percent. It will stay at least 88 percent until 1963, when it is lowered to 70 percent. During this time, America will experience the greatest economic boom it has ever known.

That's the most important thing you need to know. Let people keep their own money and spend it the way they see fit. Why not? They earned it.

knows that "Bell Curves" occur routinely at the macroscopic level of any index/stock chart.

Here's a little lesson for you in the market. It's the main reason I knew old eggface was sticking his foot in his mouth day before yesterday:

What we're seeing in the present market is the testing of a support level. That level is ~7600 for the DJIA. This is about the level (~7800) where it fell to after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The more times a support level is tested, the stronger it gets. This happens to be the third time this level has been tested in the past few months. So what we're seeing isn't anything new.

Now, I expect the market to climb back up for a few days. It's trading in a range. It's quite possible that at some point the DJIA could break through that support level of 7600 and drop to a new, lower range. But I don't think the big mutual funds will let it happen. Their jumping out at ~8600, riding down to ~7600, and then dropping their millions right back in.

This is all normal, and has been going on for decades now. Quit being such bears. It's unbecoming. Really!

1.00 EUR Euro = 0.978117 USD United States Dollars

guess no one's rounding off.

You'll always get more Euro than dollars.

Let's look at that exchange rate under a microscope, shall we?

$50,000 = 51115.86 Euro

or a difference of $1091.41! That's an aweful lot of steak dinners, ain't it?

Try as they might, those Europeans will never be quite as good as us Yanks.

As you can see, Roosevelt began relatively modest deficit spending that arrested the slide of the economy and resulted in some astonishing growth numbers. (Roosevelt's average growth of 5.2 percent during the Great Depression is even higher than Reagan's 3.7 percent growth during his so-called "Seven Fat Years!") When 1936 saw a phenomenal record of 14 percent growth, Roosevelt eased back on the deficit spending, overly worried about balancing the budget. But this only caused the economy to slip back into a recession, as the above chart shows.

I have been unable to find reliable economic growth figures from World War II, but as a generalization it is safe to say the economy exploded, experiencing it’s greatest growth in U.S. history. Between 1940 and 1945, the GDP nearly doubled in size, from $832 billion to $1,559 billion in constant 87 dollars. And this occurred as deficit spending soared, to levels Keynes had earlier and unsuccessfully recommended to Roosevelt.

http://home.att.net/~Resurgence/THE_GREAT_DEPRESSION.htm

War tends to do that.

As far as Keynes, a little thing called 'stagflation' blew his little theories outta da water.

hmm. the period mentioned starts in 1940, before America entered the war.

stagflation is a hoax to explain mass economic failure as right wing economics became popular again.

wasn't stagflation caused by OPEC raising oil prices in '73? Nothing to do with Keynes, I'm afraid.

"Try as they might, those Europeans will never be quite as good as us Yanks"

spoken like a true robot!

I was just hoping aaron could tell me one last time how the DOW did today?

i think it did pretty bad today. i understand its now at a six year low....

In my above post I employed the car metaphor to illustrate that Eric and his ilk care only that the system currently works well for them.

My point was to drive home the fact that the "car" (the economy) may look "fine" (from their vantage point) but that the "engine" (the economic fundamentals) is diseased.

It is telling, but hardly surprising to me, that neither Eric nor the other myopic rightist who chimed in bothered to refute, or express concern, that for millions conditions are horrible and getting worse.

The "second rightist" seems to think that because s/he's (allegedly) making money in equities my analysis of the present situation is incorrect. Apparently s/he equates sizing up the market and picking ones' spots on equities with understanding whether capitalism as a whole is or isn't in crisis:

"Only a complete fool would look at a car and believe since the outside has just been washed the inside and trunk must have been vacuumed. You got to be even dumber to make a statement like that. Eric and myself look at the whole car. That's why were making moola and you probably aren't."

First I should say that I’m not invested in the stock market nor do I plan to become so. But more to the point: What makes you think that my argument rests on the assertion that it's impossible to make money in the current climate? Some make scrilla off Ponzi schemes, but nobody claims that as evidence of a healthy arrangement.

My argument is that capitalism AS A SYSTEM is in crisis. As I've indicated before, I have no illusions that smug rightists give a shit whether capitalism produces human misery or ecological destruction on a massive scale. However, it might concern them that their sacrosanct market is in big trouble. Neither Eric or the "second rightist" can refute this claim.

Which brings me to Friday's numbers: The Dow dropped 295 points and ended the week having lost 3.6% of its value. The S&P lost essentially the same on the week and the mighty NASDAQ fell by 1.8%. So much for Eric's vaunted "stability"!

Annoucements from SBC Communications, the mother company of Pac Bell, encapsulate the continued problems of capital generally and provide evidence that this crisis is real. On Friday it let it be known that it will lay-off 11,000 employees by early 2003 and cut capital expenditures by 38% next year.

SBC Communications isn't anomolous.

After months of posting on SFindymedia everyday, Eric is very silent suddenly.

Could it be that he realizes he's made a complete ass of himself?

I'm curious to hear his excuse (if and) when he returns (which will probably occur after the Dow jumps a bit).

He'll undoubtedly have a real manly reason for his absence. Something about hunting or taking Jr. to the varsity boy scouts camping trip.

Or maybe he's busy scouring the "help wanted" adds.

-It is telling, but hardly surprising to me, that neither Eric nor the other myopic rightist who chimed in bothered to refute, or express concern, that for millions conditions are horrible and getting worse. My argument is that capitalism AS A SYSTEM is in crisis.

But it aint that bad for most people buddy boy. The market will rebound. Think 'loooooong term, loooooong term'. Short term will eat your cake.

-First I should say that I’m not invested in the stock market nor do I plan to become so.

Good choice. If you can't handle the heat, say outta da kitchen. And don't complain on behalf of others who decided to take their chances in the kitchen. They're big boys and girls, they can take care of themselves.

How's rent paying going?

Eggy old boy, are you still at this?! I made you look pretty bad last week, didn't I? Oh, I'm sorry, did I hurt the poor liberal's feelings? Awwwww, daddy's sorry lil egghead.

You can find my response to all of your malarky in my post above entitled:

"Anyone that knows anything about the market..."
(I'll spare our readers a repeat post.)

I'm really quite bored with this conversation. All I have to say to you nay-sayers is that capitalism is alive and well. Eggy's rants carry very little weight with me as my trading account balance is all the testimony I need. The market is trending, as markets do.

As for where I've been today, well, making money old boy, making money. I've made another $180 in the market today going short on pharmaceuticals. There's money to be made eggster, you just have to know how to do it!

Oh, one question egglebert. Why don't you tell the readers which countries you believe have better economies right now than the good old USA ? I'm sure they'd be interested in reading that seepage. But alas. Me thinks he won't, as he has failed to answer any and all previous questions posed to him, as are the commonalities that bind obfuscating liberals!

off the labor of others, but only by social parasites like bosses and day traders.

Well tell us what YOU do for a living then. Or are you just another chickenshit liberal?

"There's money to be made off the labor of others, but only by social parasites like bosses and day traders."

There's nothing wrong with working for someone else or hiring people to work for you or your company. If you choose not to participate, fine. But don't be so smug as to go around telling other people what they can and cannot do.

if you're a social parasite. You guys suck on our neck. You can either let go or well cut you off. Either way, you're days off living off blood are numbered.

As I predicted in above posts, the DOW successfully bounced off the 7600 support level again today. This marks the 4th time that has happened.

Capitalism seems to be working fine, as usual, and as predictably as gravity.

Anytime you want a lesson on the markets eggster, just chirp up.

Don't be so smug as to go around telling other people what they can and cannot do. If I want to work for someone I can. You got no right to tell me I can't.

Now, run along boy. You got nothin'.

Again he disappoints me.

I was certain he'd have wanted to update us all on the status of the DOW today, what with his love of capitalism and apparent interest in our economy and all. I mean, how am I supposed to keep my charts up to date if he only chirps up when the market is down?

Well, I suppose I could look it up myself. Hmmm. Let me see. Where was that webpage again? Ah! Yes, here it is.

Oh! Looky-looky! It closed up 350 points today! And my Haliburton stock gained a point, putting those shares up 3...hmmm maybe I'll dump that tomorrow... maybe not. I mean after all, that is our beloved Vice Presidents ex-company, right? RIGHT!

Yes, I think I hold on to that one.

Ok, tomorrow then, huh eggy? Be here or be square!

Today's upswing was entirely predictable, and in keeping with how the market has "trended" downward FOR TWO YEARS NOW.

Like my post which started this whole back and forth stated, capital is afflicted by massive excess capacity, debt and financial instability. Nothing's changed.

Lay-offs continue, credit-ratings lag, and "consumer confidence" is showing signs of faltering. September was the worst week on the stock markets since the 1987 crash.

Meantime, 41 million Americans have no health insurance and poverty is escalating, according to this weeks reports. (And, surprise surprise, the US sold anthrax and other biological agents to Hussein in the 80s!!).

While I certainly hope you eat shit "on the market" Eric, my argument doesn't rest on that occuring.

I'm far more interested that market religionists like you eat shit politically and ideologically. Rest assured, that is occuring.

As to your question about which economy is doing better than the US', all I'll say is capitalism is in a GLOBAL crisis.

That when the dollar starts to get f--ked up and everyone starts hoarding gold, that the gov't starts to dump it to make it look like everything's fine.

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/chapman/chapman092902.html

(snip)

Thus, we believe a war would send gold prices over $350 an ounce causing a collapse in the suppression of gold prices, which would bring a price near $500 an ounce.

(snip)

Up until your last post, I was entertained by our little squabble. But I came to the realization that you are a very bitter person. Even though I’ve never wished any ill fate upon you and yours, you have done this to me on numerous occasions. I really don’t want to contribute to your furthered embitterment, so I will end dialogue with you here. I question your stability and control of your own mental faculties. I really don’t want you to end up being arrested driving your car, filled with explosives or firearms, up to the White House gates.

I suppose I should have seen it before now. I mean, you have previously (in this, and other threads) said some very distressing things towards me. Things like wishing an Iraqi soldier would kill me, hoping that I (and people like me) will be fed “shit” soon, and cheering the “immanent” collapse of capitalism (as if it’s demise would do more good than harm).

For me, our dialogue was nothing more than an entertaining distraction from my day. But for you, this is serious business! It’s very disturbing to read the words of someone that is so bitter in life and the world. Although my curiosity would have me investigate the root causes for your emblazoned anger and the events in your life that have generated such acrimony and viciousness, my intellect tells me to steer clear of such drama.

Anyway, all I can do for you is offer my apologies for any personal damage I may have unintentionally inflicted upon your enervated soul, hope that things get better in your life, and suggest that you might seek some form of counseling or therapy for that which my humble, unqualified senses alert me to probably be some form of psychological aberration.

but gold isn't really an investment. Actually, neither are most stocks because people tend to trade them on a weekly or monthly basis and the company could not possibly take the money and invest in machines and make a profit in that time, and the only time they actually make that money is when they go public in the first place. Anyway, it's just like with tech stocks - not everyone could get rich on gold prices going up because as soon as people started cashing out, the price would go down again.

The main consideration for many, with gold, silver, and other "precious" (haha, i just thought of Gollum languising over the gold ring) metals is, is that it's a medium of exchange (coin and currency) that people would likely resort to, in the event that another currency (for example, "federal reserve notes"), is grossly devalued because of a crisis.

“Today's upswing was entirely predictable, and in keeping with how the market has "trended" downward FOR TWO YEARS NOW. “

Really? Explain how you were able to predict that upswing when just a few days ago you were posting:

“The Dow Jones lost 189 points today!"

Did you “predict” that down-swing too? If so, how mush do you charge for your services as a market analyst?

“capital is afflicted by massive excess capacity, debt and financial instability. “

Care to elaborate? I think you may be trying to over-generalize. My translation of this sentence is something like:

Systems of money (Capitalism?) are troubled by the ability to over-produce, having too much debt, and unstable systems of money circulation, granting of credit, making of investments, and provisions for banking.

That’s a pretty broad paintbrush! You are essentially saying that the underlying traits that are essential in the success of a system of capitalism are those that are causing its downfall:

“ability to over-produce”
what is terrible about that? Why is it such a bad thing that we can make “too much” in America?

“too much debt”
is a necessary evil in capitalism. It’s called “leverage”.

“unstable systems of money circulation”
Do we have this? If so, why?

“granting of credit”
Leverage again. If a business or individual overextends itself, it succumbs to the underlying pitfalls that make up capitalism. It’s assets then pass to another group. Capitalism continues uninterrupted.

Capitalism is simply the Darwinism of financial systems. It is the “natural selection” for the choice economies. Even socialist China is evolving more towards that end.

“making of investments, and provisions for banking”
Having an excess ability to do these is bad how?

“Lay-offs continue”
and have never stopped. Under the first four years of the Clinton administration, down-sizing became a household word.

“credit-ratings lag”

Lag what?

“and "consumer confidence" is showing signs of faltering.”

How?

“September was the worst week on the stock markets since the 1987 crash. “

September is a month, not a week. There’s a big difference between a month long drop in an inflated market and “Black Monday” which happened all in one day. I agree with Eric in that you are grossly exaggerating things. You need to look up the word “pullback” in reference to the markets.

“Meantime, 41 million Americans have no health insurance”

Have they ever had it? What do you propose that is going to give it to them? And let’s look at the contradictoriness of your arguments here. You think an overabundance of goods and services is a bad thing, but an overpopulated country would be a good thing. I’m not following your logic.

“and poverty is escalating according to this weeks reports.”

Which?

“ (And, surprise surprise, the US sold anthrax and other biological agents to Hussein in the 80s!!).”

Really? Again, state your source.

“While I certainly hope you eat (expletive deleted) on the market … my argument doesn't rest on that occuring.”

Now what again, was your thesis statement?

"As to your question about which economy is doing better than the US', all I'll say is capitalism is in a GLOBAL crisis."

That doesn’t even scratch the surface of answering his question.

In my above post I meant to write that this September was the worst on equity markets SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

Brash (yet ignorant):

i forwarded the above correction before your post came through. I don't have time right now to respond to your missive but perhaps you could scroll from my "giggle" post about a third of the way down this thread.

Capiche?

"There are no more secure investments to be found than tools, weapons and vehicles."


heh...

nessie, that reminds me, didn't you mention once, that you are/were a mechanic by trade?

..thought you'd get a kick out this snip:



"During colonial times, the "common people" were sometimes in control of their local governments. To control the Boston Town Meeting, urban workers, artisans and country farmers formed an alliance in 1768. A group of Boston merchants complained: "At these meetings, the lowest Mechanicks discuss upon the most important points of government with the utmost freedom." "

http://www.hermes-press.com/completing.htm


-----

(just imagine this)

"...on the Internet, the lowest ______(fill in the blank)
discuss the most important points of..."


---------------

"There ought to be limits to freedom. " - pResident GWB

Give your money to the Greens, or run for office yourself.

Anyone will be better than what we have, at this point, just one criminal after another yacking at the cameras and begging on the phone for cash to run and then drop more bombs.

It's a long-term investment, but in the long run, your gold, worked steel or car, will have either more value (since Greens don't support war and consequent destabilizing the world economy), or no value at all, when there are no more property rights post-worldwide nuclear winter.